good and bad Slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility/Sirius' choice

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 175249

> Dana:
> Has anybody ever thought about what the scene with Sirius and 
Snape 
> and later the sorting also actually could mean and why Snape 
showed 
> it to Harry? 

Magpie:
You know, I see a lot things I agree with in this post, and yet it 
still seems pretty hopeless for kids in Slytherin--like it's a trick 
that gets played on them early, a test that other kids know how to 
pass and they don't, and which gets me back on the same track I 
already was about Slytherin: they make themselves unpleasant, they 
deserve any punishment they get. I mean, I don't think Slytherin is 
the "evil" house, but putting yourself above others still does seem 
very much inferior to other people. You can't get around the 
unpleasant nature of Slytherins with thousands of pages to show 
them. (And sometimes characters that come across as funny to me 
actually seem to be intended to be far more unpleasant in the scheme 
of the books as well, so I may even be seeing them as better than 
I'm supposed to see them.)

Dana:
> I think it is because he wanted to show Harry that he regretted 
the 
> fact that like Sirius he could have made a choice to go with his 
> friend (or potential friend in Sirius case) instead of what the 
> house, he clearly already was fascinated with, could offer him. 
Snape 
> wanted Lily sorted into Slytherin and it never occurred to him 
that 
> if she was sorted into a different house that he could do the same 
to 
> stay with her. Snape saw Sirius break with a family tradition of 
> being sorted into Slytherin and with Sirius being sorted before 
> Snape, Snape (being smart enough even at age 11) could have known 
> that it was possible to have yourself sorted into a different 
house 
> if you really wanted it.

Magpie:
And yet why should he have done that? It's like, again Snape should 
have known not to be a Slytherin. But why should the one house 
matter that way? Snape wanted to be in Slytherin because it was his 
family house and to him it was the house you should want to be in, 
much like Hermione had decided Gryffindor was obviously the best. 

Why should he have chosen (and there's more to the Sorting than just 
requesting your house--the hat does the choosing to some extent) to 
go into Gryffindor because his friend was there? Obviously she 
wasn't wrong for not choosing Slytherin for Snape. It's like there's 
this trick answer where Snape's being tested in a way he couldn't 
pass. Harry doesn't choose to be in Gryffindor to follow Ron, the 
hat chooses it for him because Harry himself wants not Slytherin. 
And Sirius seems, as I said, to be a very Gryffindor personality 
above just not wanting Slytherin for himself and was Sorted before 
James. It just seems like a trick to say the kid is supposed to know 
not to want to be in Slytherin or know he should have done his best 
to follow his friend into a different house. Couldn't they just 
continue to be friends in different houses? Obviously they could--
they did until Snape proved himself a bad friend because he wanted 
to do these other things as well as be friends with Lily. We know 
right away that Snape's being in Slytherin is a bad choice that says 
something very important about his personality.


Dana:
> Snape then shows memories that again emphasis that he made choices 
to 
> follow his own convictions/ fascinations/ ambitions over his 
> friendship with Lily and later losing her friendship over it and 
that 
> all these choices together eventually led to the one biggest 
regret 
> of his life -> bringing the prophecy to LV that let to Lily's 
death. 

Magpie:
I agree this is what happened--and this seems to be a trait that 
Slytherins share, which is why it's so important when they actually 
feel something for another person. Even in the end Snape never 
allowed himself or never could have good relationships with anybody 
it seems to me. This still to me seems to put them in a different 
group than other characters who form more normal connections.

Dana:
> I think DD's remark about sorting to soon, hit Snape hard for this 
> very reason. 
> 
> DD's remark also was not about focusing on Slytherin being evil 
but 
> about Snape's change in focus and just like DD himself this change 
> can come later in life. It is not Snape changing into a Gryffindor 
it 
> is Snape letting go of his ambition as a life driven force and 
> accepting other values of his being over that once strong ambition 
> and why he is a better man then Karkaroff. 

Magpie:
But isn't this basically saying that the goal of any Slytherin is to 
rise above the thing that makes you a Slytherin? It still seems like 
he's obviously handicapped when it comes to the basic things that 
make all the other characters good. Even the "good Slytherin" has 
this problem. How is Snape letting go of his ambition, which makes 
Dumbledore say they perhaps Sort too soon, not Snape overcoming his 
Slytherin-ness? It just seems like the self-centeredness and 
personal ambition is the thing that must be overcome, and this is 
obviously a fundamental problem for Slytherins more than other 
houses. Snape is perhaps just being told this now. Being Sorted into 
another house doesn't seem to include this kind of lesson you have 
to learn, even if one could imagine what they might be.

Dana:
Draco wanted nothing more 
> then to follow the ambitions his family had set out for him and it 
> was so obvious to the hat that it didn't need more then to barely 
> touch Draco's head to see it. Not because Draco was defined evil 
but 
> because Draco chose to follow in his family's footsteps without 
ever 
> thinking there was any other possibility. Draco was not defined by 
> the hat but by his own lack of wanting to be anything else then 
his 
> family wanted him to be. It is not the hat that made Draco turn 
into 
> the person that he is and neither did it mean that being in that 
> house meant he could never be anything else or do anything good 
with 
> the ambitions he chose to follow. 

Magpie:
Right--but doesn't that just say that the Hat is correctly 
identifying people as what they are? The hat doesn't force anybody 
to be anything, but once you've been Sorted by the Hat it does show 
something about you, doesn't it? In Draco's case it says something 
pretty negative, while Harry had the *abilities* to do well in 
Slytherin but not the character flaw of being so self-centered. 
Snape's ultimate relationship to the Malfoys was actually a big let-
down for me in DH. They weren't capable of the kind of ties the good 
guys make easily. (This seemed to completely go against what I saw 
in HBP, but then a lot of what I thought was interesting in HBP 
seemed to just be an accidental illusion.)

Dana: 
> Peter did not get sorted into Slytherin because he did not have 
any 
> ambitions, was not loyal enough to be sorted into Hufflepuff and 
was 
> not intelligent enough or to lazy to be sorted into Ravenclaw. He 
was 
> sorted into Gryffindor by default. 

Magpie:
This I can't accept. I don't think anybody gets put into Gryffindor 
by default. You get Sorted into Gryffindor for courage, not for 
being too lazy or too disloyal or too lacking in ambition for 
anything else. The closest thing we even get to a default house 
is "all the rest" Hufflepuff. Peter must have valued bravery and had 
it in him, it seems to me. His courage ultimately failed him in an 
important way as perhaps Snape's personal ambition failed him. Or 
else it manifested in different ways.  But where Peter became a 
Shadow Gryffindor, someone who was the most cowardly as the opposite 
of bravery, Snape became the most self-sacrificing in only one 
specific way. (As did Regulus.)


Dana: 
> Unlike DD who realized that his knowledge could be put to better 
use 
> when he lost a person close to his heart, Snape had to be forces 
into 
> using his potentials for the good cause and was bitter and 
grudging 
> about it all the way through and only started to realize some of 
it 
> when it was pretty much to late to have any meaning/ effect on his 
> own life. 

Magpie:
And that fits with Dumbledore having the better character, imo. We 
hear how ambitious he is, but everything in canon points to him 
being a Gryffindor, which to me suggests he had a different 
essential nature. For him the ambition was a mistake that he snapped 
out of. Snape did not naturally snap out of it, and never snapped 
out of it even years later as clearly as Dumbledore did.

Dana:
Snape could have enjoyed his stay at Hogwarts as a teacher 
> and make a life for himself. He could have been a good example for 
> his house that ambition is nice as long as you do not let it 
control 
> every choice you make in life but he CHOSE not do to so. 

Magpie:
Exactly. Even when Snape switched sides he rejected the possibility 
of good relationships there. 

Dana: 
> Snape showing Harry these specific memories is Snape's way of 
saying 
> that he regretted not having made different choices and that he 
> acknowledges that Harry is the bigger man for choosing to love and 
> fights for what he believes in even if he doesn't gain anything 
from 
> it personally, that he now understands that Harry is indeed Lily's 
> son. To not have chosen love over his own ambitions was wrong and 
> that love should actually have been the one thing he should have 
> ambitioned. 

Magpie:
You know, this is just a bit too much for me and I don't agree. Why 
has Snape suddenly decided that Harry was really so great after all 
the years of hating him? I can't believe that just because of the 
memories that were in the Pensieve. I can easily believe this is 
what *we* are supposed to see as readers but it's far more in 
Snape's personality, imo, to have a completely different view of 
things. It's just far too schmaltzy for me to imagine Snape putting 
memories in a dish thinking, "Oh Harry, now I see you are the bigger 
man and are Lily's son! I was so wrong for having ambitions! All I 
needed was love! I have joined the hoards of adults who think you're 
the best boy ever!" I think this is what we are supposed to see from 
Snape's story, but having Snape think that about himself is just too 
humiliating imo.

Dana:

And with JKR stating that Lily would have loved him back 
> it makes Snape's choices not to go for it that more ironic that he 
> only started to realize what he had when he lost it as do most 
people 
> in life. 

Magpie:
I admit that when I hear JKR say that Lily *might* have loved him 
back romantically it seems again just to be a compliment to Lily. 
Snape was completely unpleasant and unattractive, but of course Lily 
would have looked past all that and loved him because she was so 
wonderful. It's just all the more ironic that Snape lost that for 
himself so it's really his fault Lily married the charismatic guy. 
It just seems like another way of building up Lily and making Snape 
a lesson, even JKR herself says you'd be crazy to be in love with 
Snape.

> Dana, Who thinks that people should not hate other characters in 
the 
> novel because they love Snape, which would make it possible for 
them 
> to see the true story of Severus Snape in the novel instead of 
making 
> one up to fit what they want him to represent instead. Snape could 
> have been James if he had made different choices. 

Magpie:
Well, he would never have been James. But yeah, that's the same idea 
that I get from all the Slytherins: of course they could have been 
better if they'd made different choices. But their choices show who 
they are, and their Sorting shows us the kinds of choices they're 
going to make. It's more the reason not to see them as like the good 
guys or think things could have been different. They just choose to 
be bad people and make themselves miserable and earn derision, while 
better people--or as Betsy says "You, dear reader"--make the right 
choices but get picked on by other people for no reason. Which is 
why Harry ultimately identifies with all the abandoned boys but 
never the bullies. There are just these awful people in the world 
and you have to learn how to put up with them and smack them down.

-m (who also doesn't see Sirius as being as mean as Snape)