Blame Fryffindor for everything (wasRe: good and bad slytherins)

[va32h]

No: HPFGUIDX 175204

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" <ceridwennight at ...> 
wrote:
>

> The comment was unnecessary.  "...he smashed a horrible vase 
>Petunia sent me for Christmas (no complaint there)."  Page 180.  She 
>could just have said Harry had smashed a vase, or even a vase 
>Petunia had sent.  To me, the "horrible" and "(no complaint there)" 
>smacked of attitude, a wink and a nudge to Sirius against Petunia.  
>She might 
> have hated the vase.  Petunia might have bought it because it was 
> Christmas and she thought she ought to send a gift, without putting 
> any thought into what Lily might like.  It may have been the most 
> hideous vase on earth, and I've seen plenty of hideous vases.
> 
> There is a world of undercurrent in the adjective and parenthetical 
> comment.  We've seen a lot of it in "The Prince's Tale".  Lily 
didn't 
> have much to do with Petunia's disappointment and shifting to think 
> of witches as "freaks" since she couldn't be one.  But Lily could 
> react negatively to being called a freak, at the same time adopting 
> her new world's attitude toward the inferior, magicless Muggles.  
> Petunia's belittling wouldn't help matters.  Lily's a nice girl, it 
> seems, but she is not immune to influences all around her.  The 
vase, 
> its looks, a personal matter.  But why make the wink and nudge to 
> Sirius about it?

va32h:

If there's any winking and nudging going on, I would say that it's 
from JKR to the reader, because she expects us to detest Petunia too, 
and this is another example of Petunia's bad taste. 

I just think you are reading way too much into a throwaway line. No, 
it wasn't a "necessary" comment in the letter, neither are a few 
hundred little phrases that JKR inserts in her writing. Why did 
Dumbledore say "let us step out into the night and pursue that 
flighty temptress, adventure." in HPB? It isn't necessary. Dumbledore 
could have said "Let's go." 


> Ceridwen:
> Plenty of them.  My sister thinks less of me than Petunia ever 
hoped 
> to think of Lily.  I haven't made fun of the ugly gifts, the 
> inappropriate gifts, I've gotten, though.  I haven't complained 
about 
> the gifts I haven't gotten at all, either, which is my sister's 
more 
> recent habit.  I haven't heard from my sister since 1989.  Maybe 
one 
> of these days she'll return the messages I left on her machine.
> 
> I will admit to rolling my eyes at some presents from other 
relations 
> who bought something just because it was time to give gifts.  I 
still 
> don't make fun of them and elbow my friends with droll remarks.  In 
> the end, though, the fact that someone went out of their way to 
give 
> me a gift matters more than how ugly it is.

va32h:

Well then congratulations, you are a better person than St. Lily of 
Godric's Hollow. I do make fun of the presents my mother-in-law gives 
me, and I did that even before I read about Gryffindor House, so 
please don't blame them. Yes - I'm being sarcastic. Lily has been 
portrayed as nothing short of a goddess in this series - if she's 
being petty about a vase, why can't that be just a human failing, why 
must it be indicative of her evil indoctrination?


> Ceridwen:
> I don't doubt that Lily and Petunia are estranged.  Lily has a new 
> world, a new life.  Petunia has her bitterness born of 
> disappointment.  I was surprised that Petunia sent her a vase in 
the 
> first place.  I'm surprised Lily displayed it, since she thought it 
> was ugly.


va32h:

How can they be *that* estranged if Petunia knows where to send the 
gift? Either Petunia knows Lily's address for Muggle post, or they 
have exchanged things by owl post. Either way - Petunia would have 
had to make an effort to get the vase to her, which is not something 
you do for someone you hate so much that you never speak to them. 

Why did Lily display it? Maybe because she *did* love her sister, she 
just thought the vase was ugly. Perhaps it is a sign of how much she 
loves her sister that she displayed it, *despite* thinking it was so 
ugly. 

Ceridwen:
> This whole thing goes back to the Elect and... unelect, I guess, 
with 
> Petunia "begging" to go to Hogwarts, then, understanding that she 
> never can, becoming bitter.  And, had this whole idea of certain 
> people being better from conception than others not been implied in 
> canon, I probably wouldn't have looked at the vase remark as 
anything 
> other than sibling rivalry.  But it bothers me on that level, the 
> same as Harry zooming around the house and breaking objects and 
> nearly killing the cat bothers me on that level, too.  The Elect 
can 
> do anything and get away with it.
> 
> That's my basic problem with the outcome of the series.  Good can 
do 
> whatever it wants, without repercussion.  Bad can do all sorts of 
> good and maybe, just maybe, scrape an honorable mention.  The vase, 
> as a vase, is just a vase.  As part of the greater series, it's 
just 
> another symbol that bothers me.

va32h:

Well I guess, if you are determined to view every single detail in 
the series as part of this message. I think that JKR inserted some 
details just to be colorful or humorous - such as the excessive 
mention of socks. And in this case, a throwaway line about a vase. 

I don't think JKR was implying that Gryffindors are allowed to 
wantonly torture cats either - just because Harry, at the age of one, 
nearly knocked over the family cat. 

Look, I don't think that every Gryffindor in the book is above 
reproach. I would agree that JKR dropped the ball with James and 
Sirius, expecting us to like them when she gave us scant reason to. 
Making her "bad" characters so interesting that we were invested in 
seeing them reform. 

I just get tired of wildly different standards being applied to 
characters when they behave in the same manner 

If Sirius treats Kreacher like garbage, that's evidence that he 
loathes all house elves, and all "inferior" creatures in general. 

But if Snape treats Harry like garbage, that is not evidence that he 
loathes all students, it just means that Snape has a particular issue 
with Harry that he cannot get past. 

If Snape develops a fierce personal loyalty to Lily which causes him 
to completely change his outlook, it's a sign of what a brave person 
he is. 

If Sirius develops a fierce personal loyalty to James which causes 
him to completely change his outlook, it's a sign of how pathetic 
Sirius is for turning his back on his family in favor of a cool kid. 

And in this case - Lily is a horrible person for saying her sister 
sent her an ugly vase. Petunia is simply a jealous, misunderstood 
person for repeatedly saying her sister is a freak. 

Frankly, none of the people in HP are particularly admirable and all 
of them can and have behaved horribly. 

> Ceridwen, pressing the button with the joke still attached and 
> waiting for fallout.
>

va32h:

No fallout from me. I'm sure you knew I was being sarcastic. But then 
again - given the rampant hostility toward James and Sirius, I don't 
doubt that many readers think them fully capable and willing to 
murder Lily's parents. (and another batch of readers could come up 
with ten reasons why Snape would be totally justified in doing such a 
thing.)