Blame Fryffindor for everything (wasRe: good and bad slytherins)

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 175218

Ceridwen:
The vase,
its looks, a personal matter. But why make the wink and nudge to
Sirius about it? <SNIP>
I don't doubt that Lily and Petunia are estranged. Lily has a new
world, a new life. Petunia has her bitterness born of
disappointment. I was surprised that Petunia sent her a vase in the
first place. I'm surprised Lily displayed it, since she thought it
was ugly.

Prep0strus:
Honestly? I liked that little bit. I thought it showed camaraderie
between Lily and Sirius, a friendship.  I didn't read into it with
nearly as much disgust.  It also made me feel slightly better about
Lily and Petunia's relationship.  Lily did love her sister. She did
put it up as decoration even though she disliked it.  That tells one
of two things – either Petunia was going to come over the house at
some point, and she didn't want to seem rude, which makes me happy
that she sees her sister, or that despite her dislike, it's a reminder
of her sister, whom she loves, and even though she's NOT going to stop
by, she still has it out in her home out of respect and love.

I think it's normal for mostly nice people to make funny little
comments about gifts they received amongst their friends.  I think
what matters is that it was out.  Her little joke is expressing joy in
the antics of her son who she loves to her close friend who she can
afford to admit she doesn't like the lamp to.  This reads `real' to me.


Ceridwen:
This whole thing goes back to the Elect and... unelect, I guess, with
Petunia "begging" to go to Hogwarts, then, understanding that she
never can, becoming bitter. And, had this whole idea of certain
people being better from conception than others not been implied in
canon, I probably wouldn't have looked at the vase remark as anything
other than sibling rivalry. But it bothers me on that level, the
same as Harry zooming around the house and breaking objects and
nearly killing the cat bothers me on that level, too. The Elect can
do anything and get away with it.

That's my basic problem with the outcome of the series. Good can do
whatever it wants, without repercussion. Bad can do all sorts of
good and maybe, just maybe, scrape an honorable mention. The vase,
as a vase, is just a vase. As part of the greater series, it's just
another symbol that bothers me.

Prep0strus:
While I disagree with the examples – the vase really is just a vase to
me, and the cat
 again, I thought of this as normal chatting, joking,
joy in having a rambunctious child, not actual disregard for safety or
the cat (and I say this as a veterinarian!) – I have to say I agree
with the conclusion.  I spend a lot of time defending the characters I
think are `good' and attacking those I think are `bad', but it doesn't
mean I'm not underneath it irritated that it was created that way.  It
does seem like how these characters were born defines who they will be
(see the very interesting Calvinism postings).

I mean, I'm happy to see that good characters have flaws, and do bad
things, and can be considered good.  And I'm happy that at least
sometimes, we see that bad characters are also a mix of traits.  But I
do get the nudging feeling that I'm being taken for a bit of a ride
here, and I know the ending.  I think I would've liked to be surprised
more by some of the choices and final allegiances and attitudes of the
characters.

Guess I'm not sure where I stand here.  While I love the series and
many characters, I guess there are a lot of instances where I hoped
for a little more.


va32h:
I just get tired of wildly different standards being applied to
characters when they behave in the same manner

If Sirius treats Kreacher like garbage, that's evidence that he
loathes all house elves, and all "inferior" creatures in general.

But if Snape treats Harry like garbage, that is not evidence that he
loathes all students, it just means that Snape has a particular issue
with Harry that he cannot get past.

If Snape develops a fierce personal loyalty to Lily which causes him
to completely change his outlook, it's a sign of what a brave person
he is.

If Sirius develops a fierce personal loyalty to James which causes
him to completely change his outlook, it's a sign of how pathetic
Sirius is for turning his back on his family in favor of a cool kid.

And in this case - Lily is a horrible person for saying her sister
sent her an ugly vase. Petunia is simply a jealous, misunderstood
person for repeatedly saying her sister is a freak.

Frankly, none of the people in HP are particularly admirable and all
of them can and have behaved horribly.

Prep0strus:

Yes! Thank you! I totally agree with this!  I'm not even sure you WANT
me agreeing, as it's clear that I have my biases as well.  But a lot
of my enthusiasm for defending the Marauders comes from seeing them
lambasted while watching Snape deified.  The duality in these
characters is what makes them interesting, and what makes any of them
difficult to totally get on board with or completely loathe.  But,
despite how much I agree with you point here
 I do think that at a
certain point there can be a hierarchy of good and bad, of
righteousness and evil.  I don't think the bad bullying James did as a
child is equitable to the evil Snape did as a Death Eater.  And I'm
confused why Snape becoming a good guy vaults his goodness over those
characters who didn't choose evil.  James, by all accounts, became a
worthwhile member of society – loving husband, father, friend, fighter
against evil.  But that never quite makes up for him being a bully. 
Snape becomes a loyal spy for the good guys, risking safety,
reputation, and his life.  And that seems to more than make up for
being evil and for being a Class A jerk to innocent children.

Hm. Well, va32h, I'm not sure you want my support, but you have it. 
I've been waiting for someone to concisely express what I've been
trying to say – the good guys seem to get dumped on because they're
good guys, and Severus gets a pass because it's so much cooler to be
the antihero.  I'll try to remember not to dump too much on Severus
while defending the marauders.


~Adam (Prep0strus), patiently waiting for the right times to come so
that he doesn't go over the rolling posting limit.