Of Sorting and Snape

[Judy]

No: HPFGUIDX 175212

I stated my belief that Snape was driven by a desire for knowledge, 
not power over others, in his quest to learn the Dark Arts.

And Geoff responded: (Message 175165)   
> It's interesting to note what Sirius says to Harry at one point:
> '"Ever since I found out Snape was teaching here, I've wondered why
> Dumbledore hired him. Snape's always been fascinated by the Dark
> Arts, he was famous for it at school. Simy, oily, greasy-haired kid,
> he was," Sirius added and Harry and Ron grinned at each
> other. "Snape
> knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in
> seventh year and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all
> turned out to be Death Eaters."'
> (GOF "Padfoot returns" pp.460/61 UK edition)
> Now this partly echoes what you have said, but the interesting 
> thing is, how did the other students know about his curse knowledge 
> if he didn't
> show it off? And I would have thought that he would need to practise
> them in order to convince himself that he knew them....

My response:
(Much of what I'm saying here has already been said by Christine, but 
I wrote it before seeing her post, so I hope it's OK if I still go 
ahead and post it!)

We've seen ways to demonstrate knowledge of the Dark Arts without 
hurting anyone, at least not any human or sentient creature.  We know 
that there are books of curses, so you can demonstrate your knowledge 
through words.  We also see Fake!Moody showing students not just "any 
old" curses, but all of the *Unforgivable* Curses, on spiders. Canon 
shows us Snape shooting down flies with his wand; I took that as 
practicing some curse or other.  (While I like Snape, I certainly 
wouldn't say of him, "He wouldn't hurt a fly!") So, Snape could both 
practice curses, and tell others about them, without hurting anyone. 

Actually, the above statement by Sirius is one of the reasons that I 
doubt that Snape actually used curses much. If he did, and Sirius was 
trying to say what a Dark Wizard Snape was, wouldn't he have 
mentioned Snape actually using the Dark Arts, rather than dwelling on 
how oily Snape's hair was? 

We also have James in Book 5. When he is tormenting Snape, and Lily 
asks him, furiously, "What's he done to you?"  James says, "It's more 
the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean." James wants Lily 
to like him; if he had some better reason to torment Snape, wouldn't 
he have said so?  Wouldn't he have said something like, "Snape hasn't 
done anything to me, but he goes around cursing poor helpless first 
years"?  But James says nothing of the sort. 

Christine said:
> And Judy, if I remember correctly (I don't have my OOTP book), 
> Snape did use Sectumsempra 
> at least once at school -- against James in SWM.

Carol already responded to this, and I agree with everything Carol 
said here. I really don't think the spell Snape James with was 
Sectumsempra.  First, it appears that Sectumsempra ("cut forever") 
never heals fully, not unless you use a specific countercurse (which 
perhaps only Snape knows), followed by immediately taking Dittany, 
and maybe not even then. I assume whatever Snape used against James 
was a minor curse, not true Dark Magic, because it isn't 
incapacitating, let alone life-threatening, and seems to heal 
easily.  There also is a "flash of light" when Snape curses James, 
which we don't see when Harry uses Sectumsempra, so I don't think 
it's the same spell. 

As for Prep0strus's question of how Snape practiced Sectumsempra, for 
all we know, he tried it on a bunch of pumpkins. I agree with Carol 
that Snape would have been expelled if he had used Sectumsempra on 
students, just as Grindelwald was expelled. 

Prep0strus also said:
> And I believe it is naïve to think that
> Snape never performed dark arts as a death eater simply because we
> didn't hear about it.  
> And I maintain that if his `whole house is like that!', there's a
> reason for it – including a reason why HE'S there – because HE is 
> like that.

I'm not claiming that Snape never did anything wrong as a Death 
Eater. Instead, Prep0strus, I was disputing your claim that Snape 
used Dark Magic ALL ALONG, even as a child.  My belief is that Snape 
was interested in the Dark Arts because of their mystery, rather than 
because he wanted to hurt to control others.  However, (my theory 
goes) this interest got him put into Slytherin, where he was exposed 
to terrible influences that led him astray and destroyed the only 
decent friendship he had (with Lily.)

Did Snape ever do Dark Magic as a Death Eater?  Presumably he did.  
But I find it very telling that he isn't shown in canon as doing Dark 
Magic.  To me, this implies that he used Dark Magic much, much less 
than the typical Dark Wizard. As for what Snape actually did as a 
Death Eater, canon tells us that during the first conflict, Voldemort 
assigned him the task of spying on Dumbledore, and this seems to be 
Snape's main job during the second conflict, too. In HBP, we also see 
Snape working at home, with Wormtail's assistance. We don't know what 
they were doing, but I assume it was potion-making or research of 
some kind.  (That doesn't mean it wasn't Dark, but it's not like 
we're told Snape is out assassinating Aurors.) 

As for Snape being like the rest of Slytherin, he clearly isn't.  
Snape's Slytherin friends all became Death Eaters and never repented; 
Snape did. Furthermore, since we were talking about Pureblood mania, 
most of the other Slytherins were Purebloods, which Snape isn't 
either. (Regulus repented being a Death eater, but he was certainly a 
Pureblood who was very prejudiced against Muggleborns when he was at 
school; Sirius said so.) 

I see a big part of Snape's story as being that almost everyone 
looked at him and assumed he must be destined to be a Dark Wizard, 
when he really wasn't. As for why Harry, who was also mistreated as a 
child, turned out so well, I certainly think it helped that he wasn't 
Sorted into Slytherin. Another big factor, though, was that 
Dumbledore supported Harry. We never see Dumbledore helping teenage 
Snape in any way, we even see him being cruel (probably as 
manipulation) to Snape when Snape is grieving for Lily.  From Book 7, 
we know that Dumbledore can be wrong about people.  I think that when 
Snape was young, Dumbledore misjudged him. 


In response to my saying that Snape never seems to use the Dark Arts 
at school, 
Magpie said:
> True, but I would also just throw in that this area is always fuzzy
> in canon. Harry hates Draco for his "obsession" with the Dark Arts 
> as well, and when have we seen Draco using them? Not much at all. 
> But I think nevertheless that Harry is supposed to be telling us 
> the truth there. There's a certain kind of kid that's "obsessed 
> with the Dark Arts" but it doesn't get shown in canon by them 
> always doing Dark spells. It's the obsession that's important, and 
> Snape did seem to have that given the little canon we have. At 
> least he seems to have had that from what I read.

But Draco ISN'T a Dark Wizard. He isn't able to use the Killing Curse 
on Dumbledore, not even when he thinks his own life (and maybe that 
of his parents) will be forfeit if he doesn't. He can't do it. So, to 
the extent that Draco is "obsessed with the Dark Arts" he provides 
evidence that you CAN be obsessed with the Dark Arts, without wanting 
to use them, or even without being emotionally ABLE to fully use 
them.  (Yeah, I know that Draco uses Crucio, but so does Harry, and 
Harry doesn't have Voldemort standing there and forcing him, so 
presumably using Crucio doesn't make Draco a Dark Wizard.) 

Lanval:
> He [Snape] liked Slytherin and approved of its mindset before he 
even
> entered it (that he was aware of the pureblood thing is IMO hinted
> at by his hesitation, when Lily asks him about whether being muggle-
> born makes a difference). Nothing much changes. He takes to it
> willingly, like a fish to water, he may be influenced at times, but
> I don't see him as ever being "corrupted".

Aware of the mindset against Muggleborns, yes. Approved of it?  No. 
Why would he have a Muggleborn as his best friend, and stay that way 
for five years, and then beg her to forgive him, if he really felt 
that way?

There is no question that Snape was fascinated by the Dark Arts and 
that Slytherin is the house associated with the Dark Arts.  To the 
extent that the other Slytherins approved of Snape's interest in the 
Dark Arts, yes, he took to Slytherin House.  But, that doesn't mean 
he approved of the pureblood philosophy.

I've already given my reasons for believing that Snape not only was 
corrupted by Slytherin House, but saw being Sorted into Slytherin as 
having ruined his life. If he was just naturally evil, and therefore 
belonged in Slytherin all along, why was he willing to sacrifice 
himself? 

Lizzyben says:
> Nope, no excuses for Snape. JKR makes it clear that he was a nasty 
> little boy who  became a nasty teenager who became a nasty adult.
> In every scene, Snape is portrayed 
> doing *something* bad. He was a bad kid, which is why he was sorted 
> into Slytherin,
> home of bad guys. 
. W/the Marauders & Lily, the Sorting Hat
> recognized their innate 
> moral superiority and place among the elect. It also recognized 
> Snape's inherent 
> inferiority & bad essence, which is why he gets Slytherin house.
> This is because
> Slytherin is where the inferior, the bad, the morally suspect 
> children are sorted so that 
> they can't corrupt the rest of us. As I've said, it seems pretty 
> clear that Slytherin 
> children are the damned souls of the Potterverse.

I agree with your comments that JKR seems to be saying some kids are 
damned from the get-go. It bothers me that this directly contradicts 
her (or at least Dumbledore's) claim that one can chose one's 
destiny.  However, I have to disagree with your evaluation of Snape. 
He is NOT always portrayed as doing something bad. For starters, he 
stops Quirrell from cursing Harry, he saves Draco from dying when 
Harry curses him, he saves Dumbledore from the ring curse, and he 
tells Crabbe (or was it Goyle?) to stop choking Neville.  And of 
course, he warns Dumbledore about Voldemort hunting the Potters. All 
of this happened after leaving Slytherin House, though, and under the 
influence of Gryffindors (Lily and Dumbledore), which I believe 
supports my view that Slytherin House is corrupting.

By the way, I don't see Gryffindor House as being corrupting.  James 
and Sirius are "bullying little toerags" when they arrive at 
Hogwarts, but they improve over time.  I see this as being due to the 
influence of being in Gryffindor, or more precisely, being due to 
Lily's influence. 

These last two points would have fit better in my last post, but they 
are responses to messages that I didn't see until now:

va32h said:
> given the rampant hostility toward James and Sirius, I don't
> doubt that many readers think them fully capable and willing to
> murder Lily's parents. (and another batch of readers could come up
> with ten reasons why Snape would be totally justified in doing such 
> a thing.)

I've been an ardent Snape Supporter for year, but I don't see any 
reason why Snape would be justified in murdering lily's parents, and 
I certainly don't see any reason why James and Sirius would do such a 
thing.  But do I like Snape better than James and Sirius?  Yes. 

Prep0strus says:
> I see these same people absolutely tearing apart characters
> we know to be basically good – James, Sirius, Lupin, Hagrid.  And it
> confuses me greatly why the people who can forgive so many more 
> flaws, so much more evil in Snape take the (in my opinion) much 
> smaller flaws of the good characters and vilify them for it.
> The only thing I can think of is that they're not as interesting
> characters.  And there's more of a betrayal – they were supposed to 
> be GOOD and they did BAD things.  So they're castigated.  But Snape
> seemed BAD and did GOOD – and all is forgiven.

For the record, I really like Lupin, and I find Hagrid annoying, but 
very, very good. (To me, Hagrid's love of monsters just shows his 
truly lovely nature.) 

But I feel for Snape because he is SO alone. You could say that 
Hagrid has been rejected, yes, or that Lupin has, and that's true, 
but it's not what the reader is shown in the books.  When we see 
Hagrid, he is usually socializing with the Trio. Lupin we see 
interacting closely with Harry, marrying Tonks, and having a son. We 
know that Sirius spent a lot of rough years in Azkaban, which is 
probably one reason why he appeals to a lot of fans, but we don't 
even see that. James is always shown as with either his friends or 
with Lily and Harry.  

Who does Snape have? Dumbledore insults him, Lily slams the door in 
his face. Who does that leave Snape as a friend? Lucius Malfoy? What 
sort of friend would Lucius be?  (And Snape is actually opposing 
Lucius for most of his adult life.) 

Snape is tragic and alone in a way that none of these other 
characters are; he is tormented in a way no one else in the books 
is.  I think that's a main reason why so many fans love him. 

-- Judy