good/bad Slyth/Disappointment/Responsibility/Sorting/Snape responses

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 175223

Addressing Julie's post:

I didn't want to let it go without some response, as it was a lengthy,
well thought out posting, but I simply don't have a response
 I think
we've come to a fairly agreeable middle ground, and I don't have much
to disagree with.  I think on some points we see things a little
differently, but for the most part, I really enjoyed and agreed with
everything you said, and didn't have anything to add.
~Prep0strus

judyserenity:
So, it's pretty clear here that James had been hexing people other
than Snape. We have it on the word of his future wife, and his two
best friends.

Prep0strus:
You're absolutely right. Boy was an arrogant little bully.  But I
think we do start to see some change in him even before he leaves
school, both by what you were quoting, and by Snape's comment
 "I'm
just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to
think they are"   somebody out there is already having a pretty good
opinion of James and Sirius.  And it seems that opinion only grew in
the years after school, until such point that we only hear good things
about the Potters.  Ok, sure, most of those statements are said to
Harry as a boy, and how many of these adults would say `your dad was a
jerk', but there appears to be true affection in what they say,
especially Hagrid (and to make others' points for me
 yes, Hagrid
would have true affection in his voice for a sea monster, but still)

JudySerneity:
How about in OoP, where the Marauders are bullying Snape:
"Several people watching laughed; Snape was clearly unpopular."

True, it's only one line, but it's the ONLY thing we are ever told
about Snape's relationship as a student with anyone other than the
Marauders, Lily, or the Slytherins.

Prep0strus:
This is true, but I think Lanval's point was that once Snape got to
school, he was not alone.  He had a friend before school, who lasted
well into school.  He was welcomed warmly to his table.  And he had
other friends as well throughout all of school. He wasn't a complete
loner, isolated and preyed upon.  He had one friend who was a good
influence and a gang of guys with whom he could pursue his less savory
tastes and hang with in opposition to the Marauders.  It's a different
view than that of him being isolated even within his house.

JudySerenity:
We do see Lily accuse Snape of wanting to be a Death Eater (although
not of already being a Death Eater.) However, it appears that she
makes this accusation on the very same day as one of the times that
she calls James "an arrogant little toerag." She calls James this
when he turns Snape upside-down, and her accusation of Snape appears
to take place that night, when he is trying to apologize. So, I don't
see how you can say that James is just a boy when Lily calls him a
toerag, but that Snape is a man when Lily calls *him* a Death Eater.

What would Lily have continued to think of Snape? Well, presumably
she died without knowing that he was working for Dumbledore and
trying to save her, so she probably died thinking he was a Death
Eater. However, I do want to point out that Lily was not quite right
when said that Snape had chosen his path. He was a Death Eater for a
few years, true. (Probably about four years, from what we know of the
timeline.) But, his path didn't end there – he spent the next 18
years working (and dying) to undo the damage he had done.

So, no, Lily didn't know what Snape's path would be.

-- JudySerenity, he sees Snape as certainly flawed, but basically
good and very, very tragic

Prep0strus:

True. I took a little literary license (of my own, not JKR's) in
creating my parallels
 but Lily would have known Snape was a DE when
they were both adults, and condemned him for it.  I think the stronger
point, for me, is that she came to love James.  And any discussion of
how she was manipulated into it or became a worse person over those
years is clearly not supported at all in the text.  She seems to love
her husband and son very much.  And Snape did become a Death Eater.

I think she would be very happy to know that Snape turned away from
that path.  I have to believe that part of her always held some
affection for Snape.  And your evaluation of snape
 flawed, good,
tragic.  Yeah, I can see that.  But overwhelmingly MEAN.  And I have a
hard time getting past that.  He didn't grow up.  He stayed an angry,
nasty person, even when he was `good'.  And he is tragic, but I know
also that his choices make him so.  He is no Mulciber maybe, but what
do we know of Mulciber's childhood that we might make excuses for? 
Harry had a tough childhood, and Sirius was indoctrinated in evil

maybe with a little more work or a little more devotion to Lily Snape
could have been like them instead of such a tragic figure.  Sirius was
tragic as well.  And his death is partially due to his own
impetuousness, but I definitely mourn for him more – he didn't make
the choice to be evil.  But he was punished for it, and lost a decade
of his life for it.  He lost his best friend.  He died young fighting
evil.  When I put Sirius next to Snape, I see two tragic heroes.  But
Snape is an antihero, while Sirius is simply a flawed hero, in my view.

Judy:
But I feel for Snape because he is SO alone. You could say that
Hagrid has been rejected, yes, or that Lupin has, and that's true,
but it's not what the reader is shown in the books. When we see
Hagrid, he is usually socializing with the Trio. Lupin we see
interacting closely with Harry, marrying Tonks, and having a son. We
know that Sirius spent a lot of rough years in Azkaban, which is
probably one reason why he appeals to a lot of fans, but we don't
even see that. James is always shown as with either his friends or
with Lily and Harry.

Who does Snape have? Dumbledore insults him, Lily slams the door in
his face. Who does that leave Snape as a friend? Lucius Malfoy? What
sort of friend would Lucius be? (And Snape is actually opposing
Lucius for most of his adult life.)

Snape is tragic and alone in a way that none of these other
characters are; he is tormented in a way no one else in the books
is. I think that's a main reason why so many fans love him.

Prep0strus:
I really liked this whole post).  I don't know if I fully agree with
everything you're saying, but I can see how somebody can think that
way.  But a lot of what you say about being alone comes at the `end',
after the choices have been made.  And it is hard not to feel for
Snape.  But when you look at their whole lives, and see where the
breaks happen, it's a little different.

If any bad character had Harry's childhood up until 11, and turned out
evil,  I think we would immediately give him an excuse.  10 years of
living in a cupboard, being treated terribly by Muggles who show him
no love? But he turns out well.

You mention Hagrid – older than Harry's parents – not being alone
because he is socializing with the trio.  So, until those 11 year olds
came along, for all those years...? I mean, we have no canon, so I
it's hard to say anything without conjecture, but it seems his only
real support is Dumbledore – also Snape's only support.  Dumbledore
and Hagrid don't appear to go out and socialize all that much.  Hagrid
appears to have been a bit of a loner even as a child, turning to
monsters for friendship, and spent his adult life until CoS being
suspected of releasing a monster that killed someone.  Hagrid the
halfbreed, seemingly quite lonely himself, makes the choice to be good.

Lupin, you're right about. I think it's possible Lupin was saved by
his good friends
 which again makes me just want to give James and
Sirius big hugs.  Sirius suffers through Azkaban – and not for doing
ANYTHING wrong.  He isn't atoning.  He isn't paying his dues.  He's
having his psyche attacked day in and day out because of the actions
of Snape, Peter, and Voldemorte.  He comes out of that remarkably well
– if the worst thing we can say of him is that he hasn't matured from
being an impetuous arrogant youth, I think that shows some strength of
character.

And Snape
 the way you write of him, it's so hard not to see your
point, pity him and care for him.  But I have to note that he had a
good friend in Lily, who he lost due to his own choices – she stuck
with him through the bad hygiene, through the unpopularity, even
through much of his interest in dark arts.  But he went too far.  And
afterwards
 he wasn't alone then either.  All his influences were
negative, true, but he wasn't alone.  When he rejects Voldemorte, it's
powerful I think because he chooses to be alone.  Perhaps for the
first time since before he met Lily, he is alone.  And that thought
really does make me admire his strength.  But I don't think it
entirely wipes away the terrible choices he made prior to that.  And
no matter how much I pity his isolation or admire his strength, I can
never like the man who treated the children the way he did.  I can be
happy he redeemed himself and sad he never found happiness, but I
would rather be friends with the adult James or the adult Sirius than
the adult Snape. (I don't know if I want to be friends with the
teenage version of any of them.)

Judy:
I think that another reason why so many fans like Snape is that they
find it emotionally satisfying, or perhaps comforting, that although
he is mean on the surface, he has others' best interests at heart. Of
course, this caring applies most clearly to Harry, who thinks that
Snape hates him and even (at least in Book 1) thinks Snape is trying
to kill him, and then finds that Snape has been trying to save him.
But it also applies to Neville, who is repeatedly insulted by Snape
and then is protected by him at various times, and even to
Dumbledore, whom Snape *kills*, but turns out to be trying to help.

Prep0strus:
That's very interesting.  I wonder why I have the opposite reaction. I
mean, I know he's interesting as a character, but if he does care and
want to good, it just makes me want to smack him upside the head in
every class and scream, `Be NICE, you big goon!' 

Judy:
Also, on the topic of why so many people like Snape but not James and
Sirius, I think it's quite easy for some fans to become emotionally
involved with Snape because he's such a central character. Then, when
James and Sirius bully him (and many, many fans believed that they
did, long before Book 5 came out), the attachment to Snape results in
hostility towards James and Sirius. Not all Snapefans feel that way,
but quite a few do.

Prep0strus:
Yeah, I see what you're saying.  It frustrates me, but I guess I get
it.  I tend to focus on the idea that Snape did these terrible things
and has apparently earned forgiveness,  and on that level, what the
Marauders did doesn't seem so bad. Can't we appreciate them for the
men they became?

Montavilla47:
You know, teachers do that and you just learn to live with
it. And you keep your toad in your room, instead of carrying it
around with you.

Prep0strus
This made me laugh. :) I was glad to have other things in your post to
comment on just so I could say that.  I wouldn't mind having a post of
the off-hand remarks other posters said that made us smile.

Montavilla47:
I'm curious. What was Hagrid's incentive to choose evil? He was
certainly done wrong by when he was young. He was expelled and
his wand broken when he was 13. But was there some attractive
evil out there for him to choose, rather than accept the work that
Dumbledore secured for him?

After all, Tom wasn't recruiting at that point. Even if he was, he'd
just framed Hagrid. Why on earth would Hagrid throw in his lot
with Tom, even assuming he had an offer?

Or would the attractive evil be some undefined life of crime--
perhaps as a bodyguard to some kingpin in Knockturn Alley?

I think the same question applies to Lupin. Lupin is presented
as someone with a medical condition that turns him into a
monster for about three days a month. Other than that, there's
no reason for him to be any darker than James. And, since
Dumbledore is the one giving him an education, it's in his
interest to be "good."

Of all the people you mention, the one with the most to
lose by joining the Order is Sirius. Which is probably
why Sirius is more interesting than James as a character.

Prep0strus:

You're right. My remarks are mostly theoretical.  But the reason I
think Hagrid has an incentive is the reason any of our villains do –
he is an outcast.  He's a half-giant, which already is seen as a group
to be prejudiced against and feared (see madame maxime's vehement
denials).  He's also got some strange hobbies, and we don't really see
any examples of friends in his childhood or adult.  Just a protector –
Dumbledore, and the trio.  As for available evil, that's where my
argument falls down.  And Hagrid has always been kind of simple, and
good hearted, so it's silly to think of it.  But he is another
societal outcast, so I include him as one that made good choices.

The same can be said of Lupin.  Society appears to reject him more
than Hagrid, and there are passages that make it seem that most
werewolves decide to turn against that society and be the monsters
they are perceived as being.  Greyback is the worst of the bunch, but
I got the impression he wasn't the only one.  But Lupin's choice was
made easier by his strong Griffindor friendships.  However, it doesn't
seem to make his adult life that easy.  He's often described as
haggard and gaunt.  The ministry disapproves, he can't find normal
employment
 And Greyback often seems be at least
 *ahem*
 well fed.

And there's Harry, of course, as well.

Montavilla47
But Snape wasn't "evil" as an 11-year-old, or as a 17-year-old. He was
a kid, trying to make sense of the world around him. He made the
wrong choice. It seems obvious to us that it's the wrong choice. But
it probably wasn't that clear to Snape.

Snape went with the people who were treating him well, cheering his
sorting and helping him study for classes and appreciating his talents.
Why the heck would he want to join the people who were hanging
him upside down, pantsing him, and trying to feed him to a werewolf?

What allegance would he have to the Headmaster who allowed those
things to take place?

Prep0strus:
You make a very strong point.  The only thing I can say is, he should
have been aware of the world outside of Hogwarts.  These students
don't live in a vacuum – they have owls and the like.  And he would
know what was going on.  And even as a child he should be able to tell
right from wrong.  He may have had a powerful reason to stay with that
group.  But he also had a `conscience' in his good friend Lily.  It's
clear she argues with him over what he is doing, and how wrong it is.
 I can see how Snape's choice is comprehensible, but I still think it
makes him weaker, at least as a child, than I think I'm supposed to
believe that Snape is.  As an adult Snape finds that strength .

Alla:
So, sure I see those flaws and acknowledge them. The thing for me is
that **despite** those flaws I believe that Sirius and James were
better people **altogether** than Snape.

Prep0strus:

That pretty much sums it up for me as well.