[HPforGrownups] Re: good and bad Slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[doliesl at yahoo.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 175228



Montavilla47:
I think it's fine to want to see the best in people. What I find a bit
hypocritical, though (and I'm not directing this at you, but at the
general trend) is for either side to ignore the faults of their favorite
characters, or to insist that these faults are meaningless, while
insisting that the faults of the characters they disliked define
their characters.
<SNIP>
I guess what I really don't understand in all this discussion is
why we insist on following the Marauder/Snape feud. Why can't
we like Snape AND James and Sirius? I know I like them all.

Prep0strus:

I completely agree with that first statement. And, for the record… I'm
not even that huge a fan of Sirius.  And James isn't enough of a
character for me to be that attached.  I do like Lupin quite a bit.

But I think that your first statement is why many of us (including
myself) fight so hard for characters we see being maligned. 


D:

Personally, Sirius and Snape for me, yes. James...huh!?  I don't see any
appeal whatsoever to *like* about James as reader, he's not even a
character...at most for me he's just a background setup. His sole purpose in these
books are being Harry's long gone dead father and an excuse of a link
for other REAL characters (= ones who actually matters and live across
the pages, ie: Sirius and Snape)  to have some on-page roles in relation to Harry. So if what
was needed to tell the story on page regarding James in the series is a
bit favoring Snape-side ultimately, it is because that's what matters in storytelling. I think it's misconception to see James and Snape to have some 'equal'
footing as characters. At most, other than Harry and the whole Lily's
love magic,  both James and Lily and their supposed revelation and
importance matter most (esp. in DH) in serving Snape's arc, so you can say they're part of Snape's stories (other than Harry's).
While Snape also function only as part of
Harry-the-Protagonist's grand scheme. Sometimes I
feel that some people here often forget this is a work of fiction and went on with some moral judging contest.  To
puzzled over "how dare readers liking Snape over James" is a bit
'duh!?' in my opinion. I like what I see and feel on pages. I don't 'see' much about James, while I see and feel plenty for Snape. Snape won my heart, not James.



Prep0strus:
But I like the Marauders better than Snape.  A lot better. And what I
see in a lot of posters is this (to the perspective of someone who
doesn't like him) a fanatical devotion to Snape.  I mean, let's face
it – he's interesting.  This evil seeming guy who has been doing good
all along.  He has an interesting past, it's checkered, and he turns
out good.  And people identify with parts of that, and defend him.

D:
Another 'duh!?' from me. Casual readers of these books won't be joining and reading hundreds of long discussion threads daily would they? And they're usually the kind of readers who will say their favorite characters (if they're any) are 'Hagrid' and other obvious 'lovable' characters. Most of us here (=fandom) are the *fans* with a certain obsessive quality and some tend to find the 'unlovable' moral conflicting characters more lovable. Why do majority of discussions goes to characters with moral struggle (ie: Snape, "a flawed man like all of us" in JKR's own words) instead of pure-and-stay-good and supposedly more 'lovable' characters? If you want to sing song praising the love for  pure-and-stay-goodand totally lovable positive characters, there're threads on them too or start one yourself (but if you dragged in some comparison on Snape  I'm sure it will turn into another who has more flaws 'competition' threads)

See the problemw with these 'flaw competition' is that....who the heck is James anyway?  While Snape is a major central character many of us love and hate for 7 books. It's no wonder Snape matters a lot a lot  more readers's heart than say...James or some other background. It's the
same  as  people saying why Harry is their absolute
favorite character because Harry is the protagonist and it's all about him anyway.

So you get a jaded applaud from my for you to get work up for "background characters" like James for sake of the so called injustice of 'fans' favoring major character like Snape and having more empathy for him. I just thought that was just...you know...obvious.  I too think a lot of characters tearing on this list are excessive, that's why I never join in. Actually before I join this list, I never knew that some fans like to 'judge' and obsessed over 'moral' so much, or that people think readers should 'like" a character based on their moral merit as if they're real life people you'd like to know and look up to as role model, instead of...how they function in a story and click with your type. 

Prep0strus:
But then I see these same people absolutely tearing apart characters
we know to be basically good – James, Sirius, Lupin, Hagrid.  And it
confuses me greatly why the people who can forgive so many more flaws,
so much more evil in Snape take the (in my opinion) much smaller flaws
of the good characters and vilify them for it.

D:
Almost every major and minor character has been ripped apart in fandom (especially on this list). Snape  has his huge fair share of equally fanatical haters who rips him apart in every nasty way unfairly (and I bet I won't hear your complain over that).

Prep0strus:
<The only thing I can think of is that they're not as interesting
characters.  And there's more of a betrayal – they were supposed to be
GOOD and they did BAD things.  So they're castigated.  But Snape
seemed BAD and did GOOD – and all is forgiven.>

D: 
That's why you'd see Snape being mention in "What makes a great character in storytelling" discussion (non fandom) all the time while you won't see Hagrid or James being  frequent subject of essays and discussions like that.  While Snape's character might not work for you, he worked for A LOT A LOT of readers...maybe that's what irked you?  (the heart of  problem?)  Tortured tragic nasty character with a redemptive arc are always my type, so it's hard for me to see other way. When I read the first vol. I knew Snape would be my favorite.  Again, maybe we have a different approach in regarding these stories. While you're looking for real world good role model for moral judging contest or something,  I only see characters as purely fictional existing on page to entertain me, so the interesting ones that pushes my button thus stays with me are the ones I like and valued more.  While characters like Hagrid, while likable, are only 'awww' heartwarming to me
 while I read, I won't think or talk about them after I close the book. That's why Sydney Carton won readers' heart more than Charles Darnay, who's obviously a better 'person' and a supposedly better 'man' to married for Lucy.

And yeah in a way characters' redemption (especially at the finale) do gain a lot of readers' forgiveness and endearment, that's why it's err...called 'redemption', especially ones involving love and sacrifices and death (ie Sydney Carton). Not working for you and some others obviously, but also working for a lot and a lot of readers. At least from the more 'general' discussion board I've seen, seems like there're lots of 'converts' for Snape *yay*

And sorry I disagree with your  accessment  of 'Snape's flaws are much greater than those of the Marauders.'  Peter alone drag down the oh-so-wonderful foursome in total  scoring  if we go along with your moral/likable scoring competition...or did you forget Peter? Just joking, but you see my point? Keep insisting 'who has more flaws' as if that amounts to why one should and shouldn't like this or that character is a bit absurd in my opinion. Better people =/= makes me like a character more.

D.






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