good and bad Slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 175262

> Prep0strus:
> But I like the Marauders better than Snape.  A lot better. And 
what I
> see in a lot of posters is this (to the perspective of someone who
> doesn't like him) a fanatical devotion to Snape.  I mean, let's 
face
> it – he's interesting.  This evil seeming guy who has been doing 
good
> all along.  He has an interesting past, it's checkered, and he 
turns
> out good.  And people identify with parts of that, and defend him.
> 
> D:
> Another 'duh!?' from me. Casual readers of these books won't be 
joining and reading hundreds of long discussion threads daily would 
they? And they're usually the kind of readers who will say their 
favorite characters (if they're any) are 'Hagrid' and other 
obvious 'lovable' characters. Most of us here (=fandom) are the 
*fans* with a certain obsessive quality and some tend to find 
the 'unlovable' moral conflicting characters more lovable. Why do 
majority of discussions goes to characters with moral struggle (ie: 
Snape, "a flawed man like all of us" in JKR's own words) instead of 
pure-and-stay-good and supposedly more 'lovable' characters? If you 
want to sing song praising the love for  pure-and-stay-goodand 
totally lovable positive characters, there're threads on them too or 
start one yourself (but if you dragged in some comparison on Snape  
I'm sure it will turn into another who has more flaws 'competition' 
threads)
> 

Lanval:

First of all, I should like to point out that there are casual 
readers who do like Snape, and casual readers who don't, and that 
casual readers who simply enjoy the series hardly deserve a blanket 
judgment of "duh, they're usually the ones who like Hagrid or some 
other 'lovable' character". Your definition of casual reader 
probably includes hundreds of thousands of young children, who are 
absent from the internet debate. That, again, hardly makes their 
opinion less than equal.

I would also add that there exist a large number of devoted Snape 
fans who are NOT fans of the books, quite the contrary. There are 
also people who, while very active in discussion of all things HP, 
do not consider themselves HP fans. 

I can easily appreciate your argument about "morally conflicting 
characters" because I feel pretty much the same way. 

Here's where we part ways though: where are all these pure-and-stay-
good lovable characters that *we* (I'll include myself here as a non-
Snape fan, since you appear to be operating from the view of a Snape 
fan, and the whole argument started with him) sing-song praise over? 
I can't think of any of the major characters who fits that 
description. Certainly not Sirius, Harry or Lupin, to mention just 
three whose fans' views regularly clash with that of Snape fans. 

Here's a mystery for me. Why is it that, on the one hand, so many 
Snape fans have always claimed to love Snape for his complexity, 
his 'greyness', his ambiguousness, yet on the other hand insist that 
he's the Good Guy in almost every situation involving him? If one 
were to take every argument ever fought out here, and adopted the 
pro-Snape opinion as canon, he'd be counted among the most boring,  
good-guy-under-a-dirty-cloak, nerve-gratingly noble, tear-inducing 
sob-story cliche in literature. 
 
The correspondent mystery is, of course, why the same amount of 
greyness in other characters seems to carry so much more weight. 

Examples? Sirius once getting disppointed with Harry and making a 
rather unkind remark = proof of his lamentable moral deficiency. 

Snape merrily insulting, mocking, scorning, slighting, sneering his 
way through seven books, most of it directed at Harry and other 
children, and ... well, he's been *hurt*! he's been *abused*! hey, 
it's *funny*! he's so sarcastic, I *love* it! 

In other words, not only is Snape totally justified, he's cool, too. 
And he protects Harry!

Er, so does Sirius, right?

Yeah. But... but... Sirius was mean to Snape.

More examples of this, yes, double standard in this excellent post 
by va32:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/175204



D:
> See the problemw with these 'flaw competition' is that....who the 
heck is James anyway?  While Snape is a major central character many 
of us love and hate for 7 books. It's no wonder Snape matters a lot 
a lot  more readers's heart than say...James or some other 
background. It's the same  as  people saying why Harry is their 
absolute favorite character because Harry is the protagonist and 
it's all about him anyway.


Lanval:
Actually, it isn't quite the same, because the books *are* 
called "Harry Potter and...". Snape may be a more prominent 
character than James, but certainly takes a backseat when it comes 
to appearance to Ron or Hermione. 


D:
> So you get a jaded applaud from my for you to get work up 
for "background characters" like James for sake of the so called 
injustice of 'fans' favoring major character like Snape and having 
more empathy for him. I just thought that was just...you 
know...obvious.  I too think a lot of characters tearing on this 
list are excessive, that's why I never join in. Actually before I 
join this list, I never knew that some fans like to 'judge' and 
obsessed over 'moral' so much, or that people think readers 
should 'like" a character based on their moral merit as if they're 
real life people you'd like to know and look up to as role model, 
instead of...how they function in a story and click with your type. 
> 

Lanval:
Well, since you brought it up...
You see, that breeze, it does blow both ways. I agree 
that I've seen my share of "how dare you like the Bad Guys, don't 
you know that you're supposed to hate them, what are you, BAD?"
But. I've seen as much condescension from the Snape(insert 
Draco/Slytherin/Random Designated Bad Guy) fandom, as in, "I LOVE 
the Bad Guys -- what an interesting, deep, intellectual reader I 
must be! what, you like the guys JKR 'told' you to like? Oh dear...I 
suppose so do the ten-year-olds..."

Yes, yes, that fandom judging thing. Lately it seems to have become 
quite an issue, though more centering on who liked DH and who did 
not, and as someone who did, I've sometimes wondered about *my* 
possible moral, er, deficiency? 

Then again, it could of course just be my "simple" way of reading it.
I would certainly prefer childlike naïveté to being Sorted against 
my will into a political, moral and religious corner by those who 
don't share my view on DH. I must add that this refers mostly to 
offlist content, found elsewhere on the internets.

And now I'll go burn my ears with the iron, and slam the oven door 
on my hands a few times, for discussing fans instead of HP. My 
apologies to the list elves; I won't do it again, but it just has 
been rankling for a while.



> Prep0strus:
> <The only thing I can think of is that they're not as interesting
> characters.  And there's more of a betrayal – they were supposed 
to be
> GOOD and they did BAD things.  So they're castigated.  But Snape
> seemed BAD and did GOOD – and all is forgiven.>
> 
> D: 
> That's why you'd see Snape being mention in "What makes a great 
character in storytelling" discussion (non fandom) all the time 
while you won't see Hagrid or James being  frequent subject of 
essays and discussions like that.  While Snape's character might not 
work for you, he worked for A LOT A LOT of readers...maybe that's 
what irked you?  (the heart of  problem?)  Tortured tragic nasty 
character with a redemptive arc are always my type, so it's hard for 
me to see other way. When I read the first vol. I knew Snape would 
be my favorite.  Again, maybe we have a different approach in 
regarding these stories. While you're looking for real world good 
role model for moral judging contest or something,  I only see 
characters as purely fictional existing on page to entertain me, so 
the interesting ones that pushes my button thus stays with me are 
the ones I like and valued more.

Lanval:
I'm not Prep0strus, but... ouch. I certainly don't see Sirius, 
Lupin, the Trio etc. as "good role models for moral judging 
contest". I love them precisely for the same reasons you give for 
liking Snape. 

The heart of the problem? again, not speaking for anyone else here, 
but I freely admit that while I dislike Snape it does irk me *more* 
to see him so often elevated into something he is NOT. Usually at 
the expense of whoever shares the scene with him. Exhibit A: Harry's 
first Potions Class.

My other pet peeve regarding Snape is the amount of Fanon served as 
Canon, but that's another post entirely.

No, one does not find James very often as the subject of essays, 
academical works, etc. One finds him however quite often as the 
subjects of LiveJournal posts along the lines of "I hate James 
Potter with the fire of a thousand suns!!!")

'Splain that one to me, somebody. If the bloke ain't interesting 
enough to be considered a Worthy Character to Like, surely he can't 
qualify for this kind of hatred either?


D:
> And yeah in a way characters' redemption (especially at the 
finale) do gain a lot of readers' forgiveness and endearment, that's 
why it's err...called 'redemption', especially ones involving love 
and sacrifices and death (ie Sydney Carton). Not working for you and 
some others obviously, but also working for a lot and a lot of 
readers. At least from the more 'general' discussion board I've 
seen, seems like there're lots of 'converts' for Snape *yay*

Lanval:
Yes, love and sacrifice, redemption, death. Harry? Sirius? Lupin? 
Lily? Dumbledore?

It would be a mistake, I believe, to reserve these themes for one 
character in HP only. 



D:
> 
> And sorry I disagree with your  accessment  of 'Snape's flaws are 
much greater than those of the Marauders.'  Peter alone drag down 
the oh-so-wonderful foursome in total  scoring  if we go along with 
your moral/likable scoring competition...or did you forget Peter? 
Just joking, but you see my point? Keep insisting 'who has more 
flaws' as if that amounts to why one should and shouldn't like this 
or that character is a bit absurd in my opinion. Better people =/= 
makes me like a character more.
> 


Lanval:
True. But also: Good Guy disguised as Bad then Redeemed =/= Epitome 
of Character Worthy of Worship. 

And just to add to Prep0strus' assessment of the sum of Snape's 
flaws being greater than those of Sirius, James, Remus (no, Peter 
does not count): I agree with him wholeheartedly. Whether that sort 
of 'judging' (including all other characters) is absurd is pretty 
much moot ... as it has fueled probably more discussions on this 
group or in the rest of fandom than any other topic, save perhaps 
Theories & Predictions.





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