There it goes again! Objectivity out the window.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 175407

Carol earlier:
> > Either you like the Marauders, empathizing with Sirius, who went
after Peter Pettigrew to avenge James and ended up spending twelve
years in Azkaban and later rattled around his parents' hated house
drinking and feeling depressed, or it turns your stomach every time he
calls Snape Snivellus while Snape (who returns his animosity with cool
sarcasm) is out risking his life for Harry and DD (and, as it turns
out, Lily), atoning for his past mistakes while receiving little
praise or gratitude and no affection (except, occasionally, from DD).
> 
va32h: 
> Is Sirius hiding in 12GP, drinking and being depressed because
that's his choice? Or is he stuck in 12GP because his status as a
wrongly accused and falsely condemned murderer makes it impossible for
him to contribute to the Order outside of 12GP?
 
> Do you really think so little of anyone but Snape that you don't 
think Sirius would be out there, risking his life, if he had the 
freedom to do so?

Carol responds:
Of course, it wasn't his choice to stay in that house, any more than
being a basket dangling on Voldemort's arm is Snape's. Both or them
are acting on DD's orders (which they could choose to disobey, but,
since they're trying to do what's good for the Order or for Harry,
they don't--at least until Black joins the Order to help rescue Harry
after Snape has informed them of his danger).

I was giving the reasons why I think some readers prefer Sirius Black
and feel sorry for him and why others, including me, feel sorrier for
the young Snape and prefer his form of bravery to Black's. I was
acknowledging that none of us is objective in our preference for one
character over another. If you want my objective view of Sirius Black,
whom I merely said did not choose Gryffindor based on principle but
for reasons as childish as Severus's choice of Slytherin, please read
my other posts.

va32h:
 
> And can we PLEASE not forget that from the time of Voldemort's 
> downfall to the time of his rebirth, Severus Snape did NOTHING
dangerous or risky. He says so himself in HBP: "I had a comfortable
job that I preferred to a stint in Azkaban...Dumbledore's protection 
> kept me out of jail; it was most convenient and I used it."

Carol responds:
We don't know that. DD asks him to protect Harry from the moment Snape
expresses his grief and remorse over Lily's death. He has already
spied for DD "at great personal risk" and he now knows that Voldemort
will return. I wouldn't take what Snape tells Bella in "Spinner's End"
as truth. Certainly, he has kept up his contacts (and friendship) with
the Malfoys during those years--quite possibly having it both ways as
long as he can, watching and waiting. But we know where his loyalties
really lie. As for Black, of course, he was in Azkaban, but forgive me
for mentioning that if he hadn't gone after Pettigrew himself, he'd
never have ended up there.

And DD's protecction didn't keep Snape out of "jail" (actually,
prison--an editing slip here, IMO)--he had *already* been cleared of
all charges because he had "spied for our side at great personal
risk"--not exactly a piece of information that he wants to give Bella,
to whom he implies that he used the Imperius plea as Malfoy, Yaxley,
and the others did. Once snape had been cleared, there was no chance
at all of his going to Azkaban. Not even the corrupt WW ministry tries
someone twice for the same crime.
 
va32h:
>  And don't try to argue that Snape is just lying because he's
talking to Bellatrix. ,snip>

Carol:
But that's exactly what he *is* doing, as I've just shown. He's
telling her the exact story that he told LV. "hoodwinking" the
greatest Legilimens of them all through his superb Occlumency,
suppressing interesting little details like sending the Order to the
MoM and stopping the curse in DD's hand.

va32H:
 But let's not 
> pretend that Snape devoted his entire adult life to risking it on 
behalf of Lily and Harry. He devoted 4 years at most (1 year pre-
Godric's Hollow, 3 years post GoF.)

Carol responds:
I'm making no such pretense. But that he did risk his life both before
GH and from the end of GoF till his murde by Voldemort, is canon.

My point in the post to which you're responding was solely that some
readers see Sirius Black as a romantic, tragic hero and victim with
whom they can identify. Others identify more with the sarcastic,
unacknowledged anti-hero Severus Snape. It's a matter of taste and
preference. There is no right or wrong and objectivity, as we're both
illustrating, is equally difficult for both sides.

va32h:
> So could we possibly conclude that Sirius and Snape are at a draw in
terms of bravery? One suffered while the other one lived in relative
peace and vice versa? Why must one be "better" than the other? Why 
can't both men be just as praiseworthy, (or condemnation worthy). <snip>

Carol:
I am not trying to argue that one is braver than the other, merely to
explain why some readers are drawn to one character rather than the
other. You are illustrating why some readers like and admire Sirius
Black. I am sorry that I don't share your affection for him, but I do
understand why you feel as you do. I would hope that you, while not
sharing my affection for Snape, would understand and respect that
affection and, yes, admiration, for a flawed man who was most
assuredly not a saint. As or suffering, I'd say that both of them
suffered throughout their adult lives, but Black is the winner there,
with a twelve-year stint in Azkaban trumping self-imposed bitterness
and remorse. But the mind is its own place and can make a hell of
heaven or a heaven of hell, and Snape's life, especially when he was
continually risking it or pretending to be a DE and enduring the
hatred of his own staff in his last year, was no picnic, either.

For the record, I, too, am in favor of objectivity, but I think
perhaps we should all acknowledge that it's difficult to achieve.

Carol, who knows perfectly well that Black would have preferred
fighting openly for the Order and who was giving his being forced to
stay in his parents' house as a reason why readers feel sorry for him,
not as a reason to blame or dislike him