Of Sorting and Snape

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 175417

 
Carol responds:
> I get a very different picture, not a bad kid but a lonely, abused
> child who identifies with and wants to be friends with the Muggle-
> born withch of his own age who's the only non-Muggle in his village 
> besides himself and his mother. The tree branch is accidental magic 
> (he doesn't have a wand yet) much like Harry's accidental magic at 
> the same age and later--not on a par with blowing up his aunt but 
> similar to releasing the boa constrictor or making Aunt Marge's 
> brandy glass explode in her hand. He does lie about it, but it's 
> because he's embarrassed and confused.
<snip>

Dana:
Although I do not totally disagree with this view, I think it is 
slightly more complicated then you're suggest here too. 
We see in HBP that Tom Riddle was very capable of using his 
underdeveloped magical abilities to hurt other kids and did so 
consciously. He was very aware he could use this ability without 
really knowing why he could do it. 

We see that Harry had truly accidental magical outbursts when the 
kids at school bully him and when he is at the zoo. He doesn't even 
realizes that it was him doing it until Hagrid asks him if he ever 
made things happen when he was scared or angry (if my memory serves 
me right)

To me Snape did make the branch break on purpose because he wanted to 
punish Petunia for intruding on Lily and him and insulting him. It 
does show that Snape at an early age had a mean streak to him but he 
did not use his ability to go around and bully other kids into 
submission. Petunia made him angry and his responds was violent. 

The confusion bit you are referring to is not about the magical 
outburst but Lily's reaction. I have no problem to believe that Snape 
reacted the way he did because his adult role model (read father) 
reacted violently in similar situations but I do not believe that 
your explanation of why this happened is entirely correct and missing 
to include the following. 

Pg 536 DH UKed. 

`Did you make that happen?'
`No.' He (Snape) looked both defiant and scared. 
`You did!' She was backing away from him. `You did!' You hurt her!"
`No – no, I didn't!'
But the lie did not convince Lily: after on last burning look she ran 
from the little thicket, off after her sister, and Snape looked 
miserable and confused


End quote canon. 

Snape made it happen because he wanted to punish Petunia for both 
interrupting/spying on his interaction with Lily as for insulting him 
in front of her. The moment Lily detects Petunia, Snape had gotten to 
his feet, immediately making it known to Petunia that she is not 
wanted/ welcome there. Petunia in return to this response tries to 
come up with something to insult Snape and makes a comment about his 
blouse and then the branch breaks and falls on her. 

Lily immediately understands that Snape made this happen and when she 
confronts him, Severus feels both justified for what he did and 
scared at the same time because of Lily's disapproving response and 
he therefore chooses to lie about it. 
By Snape's demeanor Lily senses he is lying and she backs away from 
him. Severus tries to convince her he is not lying, not because he 
isn't lying but because he doesn't want her to be angry with him. 
Snape is left miserable because he did not have the intention for 
making Lily angry with him and he is confused because he did not 
really understand that what he did was wrong (which I again have no 
problem believing was because he reacted by example). 

I think both Petunia and Severus where both very possessive of Lily's 
attention and Severus misused his magical ability in an attempt to 
dominate the situation but it backfired. 

A more interesting question to answer would be; why Snape showed this 
memory to Harry? If I have to think of an (possible) answer then I 
think it is Snape way of saying that he felt responsible for all the 
mistreatment Petunia has made Harry endure because of her hatred of 
the magical world she lost her sister to. I am not saying that Snape 
truly was responsible for it but it seems to me that he nevertheless 
wanted Harry to know he felt that way deep down. 
Especially if you merge the scene on the platform to this one. 

You see it is not difficult to put things in a different context and 
still make Snape come out smelling like roses without denying the bad 
thing he actually did within the scene itself ;o)  

Carol:
> These memories don't show a bad boy. They show an odd but eager 
> little wizard trying to educate a little witch about the mysteries 
> of the WW and Hogwarts. It's clear that Harry identifies with 
> Severus's outsider status, with the way he's forced to dress, the 
> neglect of his family, the abusive Muggle father figure, the 
> bullying kids who reject him because he's different, the affection 
> for his mother, the acceptance by the members of his own House. 
> Many things become clear to Harry as he sees those memories. 
<snip>

Dana:
You know Carol in my view you're focusing a little too much on 
Snape's outsider status. He unlike Harry made a friend. One that was 
even willing to forgive him for intentionally hurting her sister. 
Yes, he was neglected by his family but he also had an advantage that 
Harry never had (before going to Hogwarts) -> a loving friend.  

I assume with bullying kids who rejected him because he's different 
you mean James and Sirius (correct me if I understood you wrong 
here). They did not reject him because he was different. Snape had 
already changed into his school robes and neither of them responded 
or made comments about his hair. 
 
They all rejected each other for their preferences for a specific 
house. James responds to Severus mentioning/ idealizing Slytherin, 
Severus responds to James idealizing Gryffindor and Sirius responds 
to James rejection of Slytherin because his entire family has been in 
Slytherin. 
James did not reject Severus in that moment, he rejected Slytherin 
house and it only became personally directed at Snape himself when 
Snape sneers that wanting to be in Gryffindor is stupid and that 
Slytherin is a superior choice because he rather be brainy than 
brawny.  

I know you do not agree but I do think Sirius reaction to Snape was 
because he already disliked his family's pure-blood indoctrinations 
and its reflection within Slytherin house and that he responded to 
Snape in the same way as we see him respond to his brother in OotP, 
that you either do not have enough brains if you want to go there or 
that you do not have the courage to reject it. 

I believe that Snape did not really understand what the house had 
become to represent over the years while Sirius did. Because I do not 
believe that Snape wanted to be sorted into Slytherin because it was 
his mother's house. I believe that just like Hermione he decided that 
Slytherin fitted him best. If Spinner's End is anything to go by and 
if Snape indeed inherited all these books from his mother then my 
interpretation would be that Snape's mother actually had been in 
Ravenclaw and that Snape going through these books, developed a 
fascination for Dark Arts and that Slytherin fitted most with this 
fascination. 

Sirius interpreted Snape's willingness to be sorted into Slytherin as 
holding the same views as he himself was on the verge of rejecting 
but I think he was wrong even if Snape later adopted many of these 
views. 

It is not Snape's differences that these boys rejected but his 
presumed views. They made fun of both Snape and Lily, not just Snape. 
Personally I do not believe that Snape's social background or his 
looks had anything to do with how these two boys responded to him. 
And if their acceptance of Peter is anything to go by then it 
actually argues against it.  


Carol:
> And one is that, while the teenage Severus
> chose what was easy over what was right, the twenty-year-old Snape
> reversed that choice and never went back. Harry, it seems clear, 
> both understands and identifies with Snape after seeing his 
> memories. There is, in face, nothing left to forgive.
<snip>

Dana:
I hope that I do not misunderstand you but it seems to me that you 
think Harry had been wrong about hating Snape. To me Snape actually 
shows Harry that Harry had been right about him that Snape truly 
hated Harry and that he never thought much of Harry personally and 
that he would never have helped him if it hadn't been for the love he 
had for his mother but that he wanted to show Harry that he 
understood it now and that he hopes that Harry can forgive him. That 
he would have done a lot of things differently if he could do it all 
over again. To me these memories include Snape admitting that his 
hatred for James had been largely unjustified or everrated if you 
prefer and that it was unjustified to project this onto Harry. To me 
these memories are about Snape taking responsibility for all that 
went wrong in his life and owning up to the choices he made. 

I personally do not think you can blame Harry for believing Snape was 
DD's killer and hating Snape for it and neither was it Snape's fault. 
That blame lies with DD and DD alone (and the idea still makes me 
sick to my stomach that the author wants me to accept this as 
something good but never mind). 
It was not unjustified for Harry to hate Snape for it because he 
simply did not know and it is pretty hard to deny what you saw with 
your own eyes. 

And I also do not believe that Harry was entirely unjust to blame 
Snape for what happened in OotP for the simple reason that if Snape 
had made an effort to connect with Harry instead of hating him so 
much then Harry could have believed Snape would help him. Snape was 
not responsible for Sirius death but his demeanor towards Harry did 
contribute to Harry ending up there in the first place. Harry is not 
the best in rationalizing things and give them the proper place but I 
think it unreasonable to just conclude that Harry therefore had been 
wrong about everything he concluded about Snape. Harry had been right 
about Snape's personal vendetta against him but as Quirrell said in 
PS/SS he didn't want to see him death and he did go the extra length 
to keep him alive as did many other people if I might add. 

To me it takes a lot of courage to take responsibility for your own 
choices, especially for Snape who throughout the books seemed eager 
to blame everybody else for everything that ever happened to him. And 
although I will never like the character and think of him as a fluffy 
bunny, I think he earned to be respected for it and he was granted 
it. But I can't help but to hope that young kids instead of idolizing 
this character actually learn that if you open yourself up and reach 
out that you actually can be forgiven for the mistakes you have made 
and that taking it out on everybody else will not make your life any 
better, not even if you do something good hidden in the background. 

Carol:
> To me, the child Severus in the Pensieve is primarily a figure to be
> pitied, and I think that's how Harry sees him, too. He is, indeed, a
> plant left in the dark (image from SWM), his many talents 
> unrecognized outside Slytherin and too easily led in the wrong 
> direction when the girl he loved rejects him. (I'm not blaming Lily 
> here, just trying to see Severus clearly.) He makes the wrong 
> choice and follows his friends, adopting their ambition and 
> becoming a Death Eater. 
<snip>

Dana:
As I stated above, you actually diminish the power of the story 
behind the Prince's tale, in my opinion that is, by undermining that 
his own choices had the biggest influences on the life he had and not 
his background or the lack of backbone to resist temptation. Snape 
could have been everything he wanted to be or could have built his 
own family if he truly had wanted it. Lily did not reject Snape; 
Snape rejected Lily by following his own chosen path instead of 
choosing her. He did so twice once with the sorting (to Magpie Lily 
could not be sorted into Slytherin because of her blood status so it 
was pretty much left to Snape to keep them together and he chose not 
to) and secondly when he refused to reject the pure-blood 
indoctrination supported by both his house and later LV. He chose 
ambition over love it is that simple. He was not a plant left in the 
dark; he was recognized for his talents, knowledge and ambition 
outside of Slytherin house. It was just not a positive recognition. 
Snape did not adopt the ambition of his friends, he already had the 
ambition himself, it just never occurred to him that his ambition or 
fascination could actually be used in different ways and that 
becoming a DE was not the only way to reach this goal. 

Snape just like Riddle and Harry where given a second chance in life 
when they came to Hogwarts, which provided a true home for these 
abandoned boys. Riddle never took his chances other then to make a 
name for himself and strive for ultimate power, Snape lost his 
chances when he lost the ability to see that all he ever needed was 
right in front of his overly large nose (sorry could not resist) and 
Harry took every single chance given to him. Riddle never knew love 
and therefore did not believe he needed it, Snape had love but lost 
it when he let his ambition be his predominant focus in life and 
Harry took all the love given to him with both hands. 

Carol:
> But love for Lily and, later, anguished remorse for his role in her 
> death, drives him *back* to the side of good, which he was on in 
> the first place (pre-Hogwarts) and might have remained on had he 
> been Sorted into Ravenclaw, the House of "brains" that he 
> mistakenly thought Slytherin to be. (As for courage, I think that 
> trait developed later, when he was about twenty, far too late to be 
> Sorted into Gryffindor unless the Hat recognizes potential, as it 
> seems to have done with Neville.)
<snip>

Dana:
Snape never during those (almost) 16 years reconciled with the 
mistakes he made. He followed DD's orders mechanically without 
recognizing himself that he still could be more then the product of 
his mistakes. The love he had for Lily kept him going but essentially 
it also kept him focused on the past without moving on. It made him 
bitter and he acted it out on pretty much everybody around him. Snape 
just stopped living. His only goal was keeping Lily's sacrifice alive 
without really taking advantage of the opportunities given to him. 
Without any real compassion for what he was doing.  

I personally think that it was Narcissa that shocked Snape's 
compassion back into existence after he had locked it away for so 
long. It was Narcissa's willingness to sacrifice herself for her son 
that unlocked the closed door. I admit that I believed that Snape did 
not help Narcissa out of compassion but I am willingly admitting that 
I believe I was wrong even though he did not have to because it was 
already arranged. By taking the vow he prevented Narcissa from doing 
anything desperat that could put herself in danger. He was not saving 
Draco (because that was already a done deal) he saved Narcissa. 

Snape's choices in life would have been pretty much the same if he 
had been sorted in a different house except Gryffindor but not 
because of the house but because of Lily. And he realized that and 
why he gave Harry the memory of the sorting. He realized that he 
should have followed his heart. 
It is not Snape being a Slytherin that caused his life to go the way 
it did and although I do think that he was susceptible to take in 
these racist believes because of his own muggle heritage, which I do 
believe was the basis for his prejudice and not just the house 
indoctrination, I also believe that it was his fascination with the 
Dark Arts that was the true basis for his ambition and the reason for 
wanting to become a DE. His own prejudice against anything related 
with muggles made it able for him to turn a blind eye against 
violence used against muggles and muggleborns. He thought it funny 
when his friend used Dark Magic against a girl and while Lily 
considered it an act of evil, Snape could no longer see the 
difference between an innocent hex and a dark curse. 

But if you do not believe me that being in a different house would 
pretty much not have mattered then you only have to look at Percy. He 
followed his ambition to the point he rejected his loved ones for it. 
It is not the house these kids are in that causes these kids to stray 
on the wrong path. It is letting their talents blind them from seeing 
that there are other more important things in life. Percy was lucky 
that the reality of war shocked him into this realization before he 
could not undo the damage he caused (well and having a lot of family 
members as there was bound to be someone left alive with these 
numbers) and Snape was very unlucky that he lost the only person he 
truly loved to his ambition, once when he lost her friendship and 
then again when she lost her life because of his eagerness to bring 
the prophecy to LV. I think he lost compassion when he lost her 
friendship to the point that he believed that his ambition could 
replace whatever he was missing in his life just like LV himself 
essentially has done only multiplied by a million. 
He indeed tried to undo the damage he caused but never learned to 
live with it and move on mentally from that point. 


> Carol, wondering what would have happened if Severus, James, and
> Sirius had not had their unfortunate encounter on the Hogwarts 
> Express and the multi-talented Severus had ended up in the same 
> dormitory with them.

Dana:
If Snape would have been in their dormitory without the encounter 
every having taken place then they would have accepted him just like 
they accepted Remus and Peter. They did not reject him because he was 
different; they rejected each other because of their own personal 
preferences. 
Please stop looking at Snape as some innocent victim because he 
wasn't. Yes, he was influenced by his own background as are we all, 
including James and Sirius but we pretty much have control over 
everything we do and chose the moment we are able to consciously 
think for ourselves. It is the inability to come to terms with the 
choices and mistakes we make that keeps us stuck in an unending loop, 
unable to move on to the better things life can offer us.

Sirius had a all the things you claim Snape hadn't but his life was 
still pretty much as miserably as Snape's. Both of them lost the 
person closest to them at the same moment and while Snape had the 
oppertunity to still make something of his life but didn't, Sirius 
pretty much never had any chances after he lost his adopted family. 
The big difference between the two is that Sirius transfured his love 
for James onto Harry even if he never quiet let go of the past and 
chose to do the best he could to let Harry know he was there for him. 
While Snape was there for him too but chose not to let Harry know 
this until it was pretty much to late to have any meaning for Snape 
himself. Snape could have found Lily's love in Harry but he wasted 
that chance while Sirius didn't. 

JMHO

Dana