Of Sorting and Snape

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 175470

Carol earlier:
> > I get a very different picture, not a bad kid but a lonely, abused
child who identifies with and wants to be friends with the Muggle-
born witch of his own age who's the only non-Muggle in his village
besides himself and his mother. The tree branch is accidental magic 
(he doesn't have a wand yet) much like Harry's accidental magic at the
same age and later--not on a par with blowing up his aunt but similar
to releasing the boa constrictor or making Aunt Marge's  brandy glass
explode in her hand. He does lie about it, but it's  because he's
embarrassed and confused.
> <snip>
> 
> Dana:
> Although I do not totally disagree with this view, I think it is
slightly more complicated then you're suggest here too. We see in HBP
that Tom Riddle was very capable of using his underdeveloped magical
abilities to hurt other kids and did so consciously. He was very aware
he could use this ability without really knowing why he could do it. 
> 
> We see that Harry had truly accidental magical outbursts when the
kids at school bully him and when he is at the zoo. He doesn't even
realizes that it was him doing it until Hagrid asks him if he ever 
made things happen when he was scared or angry (if my memory serves 
me right)
> 
> To me Snape did make the branch break on purpose because he wanted
to punish Petunia for intruding on Lily and him and insulting him. It
 does show that Snape at an early age had a mean streak to him but he 
> did not use his ability to go around and bully other kids into 
> submission. Petunia made him angry and his responds was violent. 
> 
> The confusion bit you are referring to is not about the magical 
outburst but Lily's reaction. <snip>
> 
> `Did you make that happen?'
> `No.' He (Snape) looked both defiant and scared. 
> `You did!' She was backing away from him. `You did!' You hurt her!"
> `No – no, I didn't!'
> But the lie did not convince Lily: after on last burning look she
ran from the little thicket, off after her sister, and Snape looked 
miserable and confused

><snip>

> Snape made it happen because he wanted to punish Petunia for both 
interrupting/spying on his interaction with Lily as for insulting him
in front of her. <snip>

> Lily immediately understands that Snape made this happen and when
she confronts him, Severus feels both justified for what he did and 
scared at the same time because of Lily's disapproving response and he
therefore chooses to lie about it. 
> By Snape's demeanor Lily senses he is lying and she backs away from
 him. Severus tries to convince her he is not lying, not because he 
isn't lying but because he doesn't want her to be angry with him. 
Snape is left miserable because he did not have the intention for 
making Lily angry with him and he is confused because he did not
really understand that what he did was wrong (which I again have no 
problem believing was because he reacted by example). 

Carol responds:

Actually, the only place in which your "more complicated"
interpretation differs from mine (aside from the "mean streak") is
that you think Severus's magic was deliberate and I think it was
accidental. There's no evidence that he did it deliberately. Severus
(let's not call him Snape; he's a little boy) *does not have a wand*.
He's nine or ten years old. The incident happens with no sign of
action from Severus immediately after Petunia makes fun of his smock,
very similar to what happens when Aunt Marge insults Harry's parents
in PoA.

If he could deliberately drop a tree branch on Petunia's head without
a wand, why was he so helpless without a wand as a sixteen-year-old
bullied by James and Sirius? Why not just drop something wandlessly on
*their* heads or wandlessly cause their faces to sprout warts? In this
scene, he neither says anything or makes any movement to indicate that
he is deliberately doing magic. It just happens after she insults him.

We have canon that children can't really control their magic (except
small stuff like opening and closing flowers). Aberforth tells Harry
that "no witch or wizard can control it at [Ariana's] age" (DH Am. ed.
564). Admittedly, Severus is about three years older than Ariana was
when she was attacked, but he's still a child and he's still wandless.
Note that Severus tells Lily that she won't get in trouble for doing
magic outside of school because "we're all right. we haven't got wands
yet. They let you off when you're a kid and you can't help it" (666).

And we have canon, including the examples I cited, for children
performing accidental magic when they're angry or upset. Hagrid asks
Harry in SS/PS, "Not a wizard, eh? Never made things happen when you
was scared or angry?" (SS Am. ed. 58). That, it seems, is exactly what
Severus has done. BTW, accidental magic is the reason Hogwarts exists,
to help kids learn to control their magic, preferably using a wand. As
Severus tells Lily, "But once you're eleven and they start training
you, then you've got to be careful" (666).

Unlike Harry at the same age, Severus knows he's a wizard. No doubt he
has had outbursts of accidental magic before, and, given his father,
they probably had most unpleasant consequences. Harry, in contrast,
did not know that he was a wizard, so he would not have realized, as
Severus did, that he had performed the magic. He has not even been
taught that magic exists. Severus, in contrast, knows full well that
his mother is a witch, that he's a wizard, and that he will be
receiving a letter to Hogwarts.

Nor is Severus Tom Riddle, who tortured other children and stole their
property. Severus is upset that Tuney is spying on them, which is
rather embarrassing and uncomfortable because he was eavesdropping on
her and Lily earlier, so as I read the scene, he accidentally makes
the tree branch drop. As I said, he has no wand. He could not have
done it deliberately. And then, realizing what he's done but not
having meant to do it and knowing that Lily doesn't like it, he tries
to lie.

Severus wants Lily to like him. He would not, IMO, have deliberately
done anything to upset her. Tom Riddle, in contrast, never cared about
anyone. Severus, like Harry and many other wizard children, performs
accidental magic when he's angry or upset. Tom Riddle is highly
unusual in controlling his and using it to hurt others deliberately.

Now if you can show me canon for a wizard other than Tom Riddle who
can control his wandless magic at that age (and I'm not talking about
flowers opening and closing in your hand but about magic related to
anger and other unpleasant emotions), please do so. Meanwhile,
remember Ariana, admittedly six years old rather than nine or ten, and
what happened to her because she couldn't control hers.

IMO, Severus looks both "defiant and scared" because he knows he's
done *accidental* magic. Defiant because he feels that Petunia
deserves it but scared because he didn't do it on purpose and is
afraid of what Lily will think. He is "miserable and confused"
because, again, he didn't mean to do anything that would make Lily
angry and she doesn't believe his lie.

You are free to see a mean streak in Severus if you like, but I think
it's what you want to see. We'd need to see a mean streak in Harry for
"blowing up" Aunt Marge if we follow your line of reasoning. And as
for mean streak, it's Sirius and James, not Severus, who do the
namecalling and tripping on the train. He is merely reacting to their
interference in a private conversation and to James's attacks on the
House he thinks represents "brains."


Dana:

<snip>


> Dana:
> You know Carol in my view you're focusing a little too much on 
Snape's outsider status. <snip>

Carol:
I happen to believe that Severus's outsider status is important. In
fact, he remains an outsider for much of his life. And Harry can
identify with that.

Dana:
> Please stop looking at Snape as some innocent victim because he 
wasn't.  <snip>

Carol responds:
I'm sorry, but I can't respond coherently to such a condescending
post. Kindly don't tell me how to look at Snape or anyone else, and
please don't attempt to read my mind or guess my motives. I am not
trying to make Severus look like an innocent victim, only to present
the very young Severus as canon shows him, a lonely and socially
deficient little boy who is trying to make a friend and keeps making
blunders that distress him. I am trying to show that Harry, who has
been in a similar position, worn similar clothes, and performed
accidental magic himself under similar circumstances, could easily
have identified with him, and the "abandoned boys" reference shows
that he did so. Luckily for Harry, his first magical friend, Hagrid,
came to him. With Severus, it's the other way around, and he's trying
to initiate Lily into the wonderful world of magic that he thinks will
provide him with such a bright future. It's tragic, actually.

Please do me the courtesy of not telling me what to think or how to
post and I will extend you the same courtesy. And please remember that
you do not have a monopoly on the definitive interpretation of the
Potter books. Nor, of course, do I.

Carol, who would recommend remedial Legilimency lessons with Professor
Snape but unfortunately, he's unavailable