Ungrateful Werewolf ( Was Re: Character Given A Reprieve)

[frumenta]

No: HPFGUIDX 175641

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Mim:
> > 
> > <snip> Remus who the others thought might be the spy, Peter who 
> > delivered them to Voldemort, James who did such a fantastic job 
> > protecting his family and Sirius who took off in a suicide 
mission 
> > after Peter instead of protecting Harry and who had such a 
> > spectacular meltdown he let everyone think he had betrayed his 
best 
> > friend.
> 
> Mike:
> I agree with you on the probable Remus-the-spy angle, although I 
> don't remember any canon that assures us this was the case.

Mim:

"Remus!" Pettigrew squeaked, turning to Lupin instead, writhing
imploringly in front of him. "You don't believe this wouldn't Sirius
have told you they'd changed the plan?"

"Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. "I assume 
that's
why you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually over Pettigrews 
head.

"Forgive me, Remus," said Black.

(and forgive me for not providing exact page here). But I think that 
this exchange leaves no doubt. Sirius definitely thought Remus might 
be the traitor and James probably suspects too to go along with the 
change and with not telling Remus).

Mike:
> Peter, yeah, uhh... yeah.
(snip)
 You can 
> say what you like about Peter, I don't care about him.

Mim:

But does it really work this way? He was a Marauder in school. He 
was their friend and as much a member and a product of their little 
gang as any of them. And perhaps if James had tried a little harder 
he might have seen just how much Peter resented him. But he 
encouraged the hero worship and the fawning not really seeing how 
Peter felt. Peter is still a monster for betraying him but to some 
extent James should have seen it coming and didn't.
> 
Mike:
> I don't buy the sarcastic remark about James. Both he and Lily 
must 
> have thought the Fidelius was the ultimate protection as neither 
was 
> carrying their wand around. <shrug> 
> 
Mim:
That's where you and JKR lose me. The Fidelius Charm is the ultimate 
protection because James trusts his friends. But he knows that 
someone may go after the Secret Keeper and that's why Sirius decides 
to change. So as they would go after Sirius and possibly murder him 
torture him and the rest they could go to Peter too and murder him 
torture him and the rest. Peter doesn't have to betray him for the 
Secret Keeper business not to be full proof. And since it hinges on 
James' blind trust to his friends, then how can he blindly trust 
them and at the same time suspect Remus? So he blindly trusts the 
others and not Remus?
And there is trust and there's mind-boggling stupidity. Now, unless 
it's canon that when James' friends came over for a visit they'd 
blast his door open I just don't see why James would sprint to the 
hall wandless to see what the hell just happened. It sucks that the 
ended up in this situation and it sucks that he died but I just 
don't see WTF he was thinking.

Mike:
> But could you give me another example wherein someone was able to 
> fend off Voldemort after he had decided their lives needed to be 
> over? Not counting Harry, of course. Because, until you can, I'll 
go 
> with Hagrids words: "No one ever lived after he decided ter 
kill 'em, 
> no one except you, an' he'd killed some o' the best witches an' 
> wizards of the age..." <PS Ch 4>
>
Mim:
No, he probably didn't stand a chance. But his death could have been 
a little less ridiculous, is all. And they definitely needed a  
backup plan as to getting out of there besides the whole Secret 
Keeper crap. Ever heard of portkeys? Apparition? Oh, well... JKR 
needed her sacrifice and all but there are more holes in that plot 
than swiss cheese.

Mike: 
> Sirius - suicide mission? Going after Peter? Could you explain 
that 
> reasoning?
> 
> 
Mim:
He tells Hagrid he won't be needing his motorcycle anymore. It 
doesn't sound to me like a man who sees any future ahead.He does not 
alert the authorities about Peter thinking that he can take him. And 
big surprise, he couldn't.

> > Mim:
> > None of 
> > them ever really grew up.
> 
> Mike:
> Yeah, Sirius got such a good deal from Barty Crouch Sr., because 
it 
> was all his fault that the Potters got killed, wasn't it? But how 
was 
> going after Peter reckless? In fact, how was his idea to switch 
the 
> SK to Peter reckless? Bad,... yes in hindsight, but reckless?

Mim:
Going after Peter by himself was reckless because he didn't tell 
anyone else what Peter had done. He might have stood more of a 
chance if he hadn't gone off half-cocked like that. He was under 
extreme emotional duress at the time and obviously not really 
thinking. But the boy they had laughed at and obviously considered 
inferior in their little gang outsmarted him. That's just all sorts 
of ironic.
> 

Mike:
> "You need your friends, Harry" <Dumbledore, HBP Ch 4> What makes 
you 
> think James had "blind faith"? Being fooled by Peter does not 
qualify 
> as blind faith in my opinion. Besides, Sirius was every bit as 
> faithful to James as to vindicate blind faith in him. It seems the 
> same could have been said about Remus. Remus may be weak, but his 
> weakness has usually been couched in terms of his desire to keep 
his 
> friends and by extension, keep his friends trust.
> 

Mim:

Again, James didn't trust Remus. And after the fact, Remus didn't 
trust Sirius. In PoA he truly believed that Sirius had been the 
traitor. Until he sees the dot in the Map he has no doubt and yet he 
lets Sirius come in the Castle again and again, just as Snape 
accused him of. So it's ok that he's endangering Harry and all other 
students in Hogwarts because he's nice to them and soft-spoken and 
gives them chocolate. This is a serious failing and even if Snape 
hadn't let slip his werewolf status I'm pretty sure D. would have 
sacked him if he didn't have the grace to resign by himself. It 
really doesn't look like Dumbledore intended to keep Remus around 
anyway, he gave him a cursed teaching posiiton. So there was Remus 
all worried about telling Dumbledore that 15 years ago he betrayed 
his trust and letting his derranged friend come and go as he pleased 
in a castle full of students in his care. It goes way beyond people 
pleasing here. It's criminal indifference, even to James' kid.

Remus isn't a coward in everything he does. He goes undercover in 
Fenrir's gang an that can't have been fun. And yet he does it even 
though unlike Snape he had never joined them but because it's right. 
Yet in his private life the cowardice is there and his immaturity. 
Marrying Tonks and getting her pregnant (this is the guy who forgot 
his potion in PoA...) even though there was a serious chance the kid 
would be like him and then being such an incredible jerk about it. 
And he hit Harry when Harry goaded him. He's the adult and at that 
moment he acted like a child himself. I think that he didn't really 
grow that much either. He was somewhat more mature than the others 
to begin with but as an adult he doesn't seem to be over repeating 
some patterns.

Mike:
> I will continue to defend three out of the four Marauders to my 
dying 
> day. Were they ideal role models, hell no. But I don't and won't 
> agree that they were anywhere near as bad as fandom has painted 
them.
> 
Mim:

I think that fandom gives them a hell of a lot of slack, myself. But 
I guess it depends also on where you place yourself in regards to 
them, a bully or a victim? A cool animagus or some random guy in the 
street getting attacked and barely escaping with his life because 
they are out having their fun?  Harry who didn't really know them 
and adored them or Dumbledore who knew them and let Sirius rot in 
jail and Remus be miserable until he could find some use for them 
again. It's complicated.