Ungrateful Werewolf ( Was Re: Character Given A Reprieve)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 175630

> Mim:
> 
> I think that this guess has hinged on Snape saying that Sirius was 
> capable of murder at the age of sixteen in PoA. So Sirius was 16 in 
> his fifth year or JKR had an "Oh, maths" moment.

Mike:
Since 10/12 of the student population (assuming uniform distribution 
of birthdays) turn 16 during their fifth year at Hogwarts, I think 
JKR got this one right.


> Lanval
> 
> <snip>  He seems more upset about Lily defending James (and
> calling Snape 'ungrateful'. Ouch. *g*) than about the danger he
> was in. No, it's all about exposing James & Co for not being 'as
> wonderful as everyone thinks', about James fancying Lily.
> 
> Mim:
> And Snape knowing that Sirius tried to feed him to a werewolf might 
> have some reason to think that Lily needs the heads up. <snip>

Mike:
"Feed him to a werewolf"? The way I read DH, and it seems many 
others, Snape knew what was waiting for him. Snape: "There's 
something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?" and 
Every month at the full moon?" Lily: "I know your theory." <DH Ch 33>
As precedent, what else "weird" happens to people during a full moon 
besides turning into a werewolf, in the Potterverse? I'm sorry, 
picking certain plants?! I think not.

What was Sirius' crime? How did he feed Snape to a werewolf?
"Sirius thought it would be -- er -- amusing, to tell Snape all he 
had to do was prod the knot ..." <PoA, Ch 18> And this qualifies as 
feeding does it? 

About the only thing fed was Snape's desire to get the Marauders 
expelled, imo. We all shuddered at Sirius' cold-heartedness when he 
said, "It served him right... Sneaking around, trying to find out 
what we were up to ..." <PoA Ch18> Well, it comes off in a different 
light after Snape's saying: "What about the stuff Potter and his 
mates get up to?" and "They sneak out at night." and "I'm just trying 
to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they 
are." <DH Ch 33> Apparently, Snape was sneaking out himself, was 
trying to catch the Marauders, and got caught by his own hubris.


> Lanval:
> <snip>
> (On an interesting side note, being that 99.9% of fanfic writers 
> and readers seem to be women... maybe we really, really don't 
> understand how the minds of teenage boys work?)

Mike:
Nope, you don't. <vbeg> But take solace, we don't get you between the 
ages of, ohh I'd say, 2 to 92. Before and after those years, however, 
we have you gals down cold. 


> Mim:
> 
> Snape already knows his secret because of Sirius and NO there is 
> no definitive proof that Snape absolutely 100% knew that at the end 
> of the tunnel he would meet a transformed werewolf. He might have 
> thought that Remus was restrained. Or that his werewolf theory was 
> wrong. <snip>

Mike:
I find none of these alternative explanations credible, not just 
yours, also including some others put forward upthread. Per the canon 
quotes above, I've no doubt what Sev's theory was. And excuse me, 'he 
might have thought...that his werewolf theory was wrong'. Then how 
would it be his theory? I.e. who proposes a theory they think is 
wrong?


> Mim:
> There are many things that Snape might be in the books but 
> stupid is not one of them and there are pranks and there are 
> criminal acts. 

Mike:
Seems he was both stupid and gullible regarding this prank, this 
time. Besides, we're not talking about intelligence here. We're 
talking about a lack of social awareness and some naivete, combined 
with some hubris, that allows Snape to believe that Sirius isn't 
sharp enough to pull a prank on him. You know what? He *did* deserve 
it. LOL.



> Mim:
> Lily doesn't know at the time that Remus is a werewolf. There is no 
> canonical evidence of that at all. 

Mike:
Umm, yes there is, I quoted it above.


> Mim:
> I'm not saying that Snape thinks Lily should disapprove of 
> the Marauders, she already does anyway. But he does mention his 
> theory once more and my theory here is that his motivation is to 
> protect Lily. It might not be, maybe he's just being defensive 
> because she thinks his friends are jerks and he wants to whine to 
> someone about that Lupin who gets away with everything. But as far 
> as he knows Lily doesn't know Remus is a werewolf and he doesn't 
> want his friend to become werewolf food.

Mike:
IMO, this theory sounds like excuse making on Snape's behalf. It 
sounds like Snape has told Lily about his werewolf theory and more 
than once. Whether Lily believes him is a different story. But that 
whole exchange doesn't read like Snape trying to protect Lily. It 
reads like Snape trying to put down the Marauders in Lily's eyes.
IMO, of course.


> Mim:
> 
> And I don't see why the Marauders had to add to all the dangerous 
> things in the Forbidden Forest. Yes, it's a tale of a great 
> friendship, all for one and one for all. Lupin had endured 
> transformations since his fifth year, did they have to become fun 
> too? I have a serious problem with them as I really don't think 
> they viewed anyone outside their little group as worthy of even 
> being alive. Or not getting mauled. But I guess most Marauders fans 
> fancy themselves as part of their little gang rather than Lupin-
> food so it's good.

Mike:
Oh, you bet. I've posted before that I would so have run with the 
Marauders in my teen years. And that I had my own adventures in the 
RW when I was a teen. It's like Lanval said above, you don't get the 
mind of a teenage boy, "of a certain caliber". (A phrase I've used 
before) I see the other side of the coin, I know it was dangerous 
and "wrong". But that's not in the mind of a teenage boy, and Lupin 
confirmed it in PoA. 

I read the HP series as action-adventure-fantasy series, so I have no 
problem enjoying the Marauders having their fun. YMMV.



> Mim:
> 
> Not part of it in any way? James had heard what Sirius had done. If 
> he did nothing and it came out that he knew and if Remus did indeed 
> maul Snape how on earth would he not share even some responsibility?

Mike:
S'okay if I let you answer this? I'm pulling this up from further in 
this post:
> Mim: 
> And saying that Snape endangered another student is just nuts.
> James didn't have to save him.

Mike again:
Seems James was damned if he did and damned if he didn't in this 
scenario, doesn't it?



> Mim:
> After he has tried to use said friend as a murder weapon.
> 
> 
> Lanval:
> Canon, please? "Murder"?
> 
> Mim:
> 
> Canon says that Sirius wanted to get rid of Snape. 

Mike:
I'll repeat Lanval's request: Canon, please? Where did you 
read "Sirius wanted to get rid of Snape."?



> Mim:
> 
> I don't know what kind of kids you know and the wizarding world is 
> definitely one notch above ours in terms of danger but I find it 
> somewhat sociopathic that every month for 2 and a half years he 
> would just go out and do this, regardless of who he might kill or 
> infect. 
> 
> But JKR seems to think it's the height of cool so I'll leave it 
> alone.

Mike:
Except you didn't "leave it alone". And, yeah, the Marauders thought 
they were the Height of Cool. And many teenage boys would read it 
that way. And, ostensibly, that was half of JKR's target audience. 
This series may have morphed from children stories to teen/young 
adult stories, but I really don't think JKR ever envisioned a "Harry 
Potter for Grownups" when she began this series. 



> Lanval:
> And yes, he [Snape] is a bit of a jerk, for defending Mulciber and 
> Avery, who have performed Dark Magic on a girl. Which Lily finds 
> MUCH worse than the prank (and it probably was). According to her it
> was "...evil.*Evil*, Sev!"

Mike:
Right! And Sev doesn't hear her. "Harry doubted Snape had even heard 
her strictures on Mulciber and Avery. The moment she insulted James 
Potter, his whole body had relaxed, ..." <DH Ch 33> It all follows 
the theme of this conversation, Snape deflecting everything about his 
mates into reflection on "Potter and his mates". Remember, we're 
talking about a teenage boy here. 



> Mim:
> 
> <snip> Remus who the others thought might be the spy, Peter who 
> delivered them to Voldemort, James who did such a fantastic job 
> protecting his family and Sirius who took off in a suicide mission 
> after Peter instead of protecting Harry and who had such a 
> spectacular meltdown he let everyone think he had betrayed his best 
> friend.

Mike:
I agree with you on the probable Remus-the-spy angle, although I 
don't remember any canon that assures us this was the case. And 
Peter, yeah, uhh... yeah.

I don't buy the sarcastic remark about James. Both he and Lily must 
have thought the Fidelius was the ultimate protection as neither was 
carrying their wand around. <shrug> 

But could you give me another example wherein someone was able to 
fend off Voldemort after he had decided their lives needed to be 
over? Not counting Harry, of course. Because, until you can, I'll go 
with Hagrids words: "No one ever lived after he decided ter kill 'em, 
no one except you, an' he'd killed some o' the best witches an' 
wizards of the age..." <PS Ch 4>

Sirius - suicide mission? Going after Peter? Could you explain that 
reasoning?


> Mim:
> Believe it or not I'm not gloating about this as only a deranged 
> Snapefan might. I felt truly sorry for them, for Sirius' 
> recklessness, James' blind faith to his friends bordering on 
> stupidity, Remus' cowardice and even Peter's duplicity. None of 
> them ever really grew up.

Mike:
Yeah, Sirius got such a good deal from Barty Crouch Sr., because it 
was all his fault that the Potters got killed, wasn't it? But how was 
going after Peter reckless? In fact, how was his idea to switch the 
SK to Peter reckless? Bad,... yes in hindsight, but reckless?

"You need your friends, Harry" <Dumbledore, HBP Ch 4> What makes you 
think James had "blind faith"? Being fooled by Peter does not qualify 
as blind faith in my opinion. Besides, Sirius was every bit as 
faithful to James as to vindicate blind faith in him. It seems the 
same could have been said about Remus. Remus may be weak, but his 
weakness has usually been couched in terms of his desire to keep his 
friends and by extension, keep his friends trust.

Growing up? James didn't get much chance to disprove your assertion. 
Sirius got 12 years in the company of Dementors, that he didn't 
deserve. You don't have to cut him some slack for that, I do. And I 
just plain don't buy that this assertion applies to Remus. You can 
say what you like about Peter, I don't care about him.

I will continue to defend three out of the four Marauders to my dying 
day. Were they ideal role models, hell no. But I don't and won't 
agree that they were anywhere near as bad as fandom has painted them.

Mike