Reaction to Snape's death

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 175772

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47"
<montavilla47 at ...> wrote:
>
> > > Montavilla47:
> > > 
> > > Adam, please show the text evidence of Snape teaching Slytherins
> > > so we can compare them.
> > > 
> 
> Prep0sterus: 
> > "Snape's Head of Slytherin House.  They say he always favors them -
> > we'll be able to see if it's true."
> > 
> > This according to Ron, as well as 'they'.  Certainly not hard
> > evidence, but proof of 'the word on the street' about Snape.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> It's not hard evidence.  It's hearsay.  
> 
> I'll bet the Slytherin students say the same thing about other 
> teachers.
> 


Prep0strus:  perhaps.  But again, then, it's Slytherins vs. the world.
 Because anyone who isn't favoring them, must be working against them.
 We don't hear anything, at all, about favoritism about any of the
other professors - not the heads of houses or anyone else.  McGonnegal
is repeatedly shown and talked about as being strict, but fair.



> 

> Prep0sterus: 
> > But even if we attribute his poor treatment of Harry to his
> > preexisting relationship with James and Lily, his treatment of Neville
> > to his incompetence, and his treatment of Malfoy to his preexisting
> > relationship with the Malfoys, I think we should see better treatment
> > of Hermione, who is surely skilled in potions, and worse treatment of
> > Crabbe and Goyle, who we know to be idiots.  And, his preexisting
> > hatred and favoritism are NOT signs of a good teacher, and neither is
> > the maliciousness with which he treats Neville.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Again, I'd just like to point out that Draco is "praised" (not awarded 
> points) exactly *once*.   And, since Draco probably got an O in his 
> O.W.L.s in potions, he probably deserved the praise.
> 
> As for Hermione, she doesn't get points, IIRC.  But then, no one else
> does, either.  Including Draco.  
> 
> And Hermione tends to answer questions by quoting the text.  Well,
> this is the guy who battled the text throughout potions, and bettered
> it.  He's not going to be impressed with someone who sticks to the 
> book.
> 


Prep0strus: I have acquired my books 2-4 (still w/o 5 & 6, if anyone
would like to help me out), so spent a cursory time flipping through
looking for mentions of Potions.  Sure I missed some stuff, but let's
see what else I came up with.

In CoS, the narrator tells us, "Cruel, sarcastic, and disliked by
everybody except the students from his own house (Slytherin), Snape
taught Potions."

Again, you can say Harry is biased, or the narrative voice is, or JKR
is.  I still will tend to believe when told everyone dislikes Snape,
but Slytherins don't.  You can have your own take on it, but I believe
this shows bias.

Also, "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about
the Gryffindors' work while the  Slytherins sniggered appreciatively.."

It's hard to twist that into a purely biased scenario, where Harry's
viewpoint changes reality.  Snape IS making comments of some kind. 
About Griffindor work.  Slytherins are appreciative of the comments. 
Griffindors aren't.  It doesn't seem like comments are being directed
at Slytherins that Griffindors can appreciate.

"Draco Malfoy, who was Snape's favorite student, kept flicking
puffer-fish eyes at Ron and Harry, who knew that if they retaliated
they would get detenion faster than you could say, 'Unfair'."

Harry's view? Yes.  But does anyone here doubt that it is true?

PoA:

Here we have that lovely scene where Snape is going to test Neville's
potion on his toad.  I know some people don't care, or make excuses
about this, but it doesn't sound like Neville has been asked to leave
his toad in his room.  And if Neville has messed his potion up to the
point that Snape expects, I doubt he can have the appropriate antidote
at his fingertips.  Regardless, this belittling, cruel, predatory
method of teaching can in no way be considered good teaching.

In this same scene, Malfoy get Griffindors to do his work because of
his 'injured' arm.  First of all, Snape, who is well aware of the
relationship between Malfoy and Potter, makes Harry and Ron do this
purely out of spite - there is no reason not to ask a fellow Slytherin
to do it.  More telling... Snape, as represented by SnapeFans (and,
really, by everyone else as well) is smart.  Very smart.  He's clever
and sees through ruses.  Is there anyone here who really believes
Malfoy needs help?  If you truly believe that, then, fine.  i still
say there was no need to put the work on Malfoy's enemies.  But I
think Snape knew very well Malfoy was faking, looked the other way,
and allowed Malfoy to get away with it and punished Griffindors as
well.  As there it isn't stated in the book that Snape knew, you can
argue the point... but I think it diminishes Snape.  He's nasty, but
he's nobody's fool.

And another scene in PoA, when he takes over for Lupin, where he
treats the Griffindor class horribly, ignoring their lessons, ignoring
Hermione's ability to answer his questions.  Because he hates Lupin?
Because he hates Griffindors?  I don't care why.  It is simply more
evidence of bad teaching.

GoF:

Harry & Draco attack each other simultaneously after he calls Hermione
a Mudblood.  Snape shows up, not only extraordinarily cruelly insults
Hermione's teeth, but takes FIFTY POINTS from griffindor and gives
harry and ron detentions... while giving Draco nothing.  Ron hadn't
even done anything (ok, not nothing - he, like Harry, yelled at Snape
after he was cruel to Hermione), but considering the hexes that had
just happened, and knowing neither had hexed Hermione, it took quite a
bit of gall.

One more little scene shows Snape continuing to harass and taunt Harry
when he is written up by Rita Skeeter.  He insults and demeans him in
front of the entire class.

> Prep0sterus: 
> > And the common knowledge Ron spouts may not be hard fact, but I am
> > inclined to believe that the students have a decent handle on this. 
> > Feel free to disagree.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I don't think it's so much that the students are wrong as that 
> the students are looking at it from their perspective.  They don't 
> really know Snape.  They see him as 1) a "nasty" teacher and 2) the 
> Head of Slytherin House--the House they have the most problems 
> with.
> 
> Naturally, they are going to assume that any points he gives to 
> Slytherins are unearned, and that any points taken from a 
> Gryffindor (or not awarded) are unjustified.
> 
> The *only* unjustified point that I see Snape taking from Harry in
> the  first five years of class is the one he takes when Neville melts
> the cauldron.  I have no idea why he does that, but it isn't as 
> though he's favoring the Slytherins by doing so.  If anything, he's 
> favoring Neville.
> 
> After Harry goes into SWM, we see a difference, with Snape taking
> petty revenge on Harry by not marking the broken vial of potion,
> and taking a huge number of points for Harry arriving late and
> out of uniform.  (Although, that might be partly because Harry 
> gave him a scare--I mean, he was probably worried that he'd 
> mess up that "protect Lily's son" thing.)
> 
> As for Crabbe and Goyle, we also know that Snape gave them
> detention for not learning their D.A.D.A. material.  (Although
> that one is murky, as he might have been trying to keep them
> from helping Draco.)  Also, the only potions disaster that 
> befalls Crabbe or Goyle in potions is when Harry lobs a 
> firecracker into Goyle's cauldron--something Snape quickly
> identifies as sabotage.
> 
> Apparently, Crabbe and Goyle know enough not to melt 
> their cauldrons.
> 
> My point is that, although we hear Harry (and Ron) talk about
> the unfairness of Snape, we don't actually see much favoritism
> within the classroom.  And what we do see is never based on 
> the work itself, but rather on Snape assuming that the 
> Gryffindors are always out to make trouble and that the 
> Slytherins never are.
> 
> Which is wrong, of course, but it has more to do with
> discipline and very little to do with teaching. 
> 
> Montavilla47
>


Prep0strus:
Discipline and teaching go hand in hand.  Just as a teacher who lets
his or her students run all over them in class would be a bad teacher.
 It doesn't matter how good their lessons are if they have no
discipline and get no respect.  A teacher that is biased will also not
receive respect, or a teacher that is cruel.  And without respect, the
students have only fear to inspire them.  They will not love a class;
they will not care about the class.  They will care about staying out
of trouble.

Demeaning some students, favoring others - this is not the hallmark of
a good teacher.  You talk about their work, but do you really think
Snape would compliment Hermione for making a perfect potion?  I mean,
a lot of this comes down to what you can actually believe, shown or
not?  Do you think he lets Draco get away with talking or making
gestures in class that he would come down on Harry or Ron for?  If
not, then we just have a difference of opinion of what we read in the
text.

I think if it's repeated that students think Snape is unfair and
biased, it's likely true.  All these kids aren't idiots, and JKR isn't
telling us it for no reason.  No one thinks Minerva is a pushover, but
no one seems to think they're getting shafted by her either.

And what he does to Neville... his poor performance is exacerbated by
his fear of Snape.  Justified by his treatment by Snape.  Cruel,
unnecessary, and poor teaching.  Neville may never have been a potions
master, but he is unlikely to be able to accomplish even the smallest
task in potions, and that is 100% Snape's fault.  A good teacher helps
all students, from the best to the worst.  Snape gets his kicks
mocking Griffindors to the delight of Slytherins.

And the thing is... it is possible to be a mocking, hard-ass of a
teacher and still be halfway decent.  I don't know if anyone on this
board follows horse-racing, but if you've heard of Barbaro, and the
surgeon who operated on him, Dean Richardson... that guy can be a real
... something... when it comes to his teaching method.  Socratic,
demanding, even sarcastic.  But he's fair.  Everyone gets an even chance.

Snape doesn't give even chances.  And his cruelty, especially when it
comes to Harry, Neville, and Hermione is absolutely uncalled for.  He
might be good with potions, with dada, with any other branch of magic.
 But he's a bad teacher.  And let's not forget - these aren't adults
he's dealing with. 11, 12, 13 year old kids he treats like this.  it's
absolutely despicable.  And we're SUPPOSED to find it despicable. 
It's only in the amazingly broad and wacky world of fandom that it
could be found not so.  Which is a wonderful thing, I suppose, but
also frustrating.  In RL, I think Snape would be having more
parent-teacher conferences, mediated by the headmaster, than I think
he'd be willing to put up with.

~Adam (Prep0strus)