Reaction to Snape's death

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 175825

> > Montavilla47:
> > I'll bet the Slytherin students say the same thing about other 
> > teachers.
> > 
> Prep0strus:  perhaps.  But again, then, it's Slytherins vs. the world.
>  Because anyone who isn't favoring them, must be working against them.
>  We don't hear anything, at all, about favoritism about any of the
> other professors - not the heads of houses or anyone else.  McGonnegal
> is repeatedly shown and talked about as being strict, but fair.

Montavilla47:
Yes.  And, and she is--most of the time.  But I'm merely saying 
that to students with different perspectives she may not seem
such a paragon of fairness.

All we actually hear is the Gryffindor perspective.


> Prep0strus: I have acquired my books 2-4 (still w/o 5 & 6, if anyone
> would like to help me out), so spent a cursory time flipping through
> looking for mentions of Potions.  Sure I missed some stuff, but let's
> see what else I came up with.
> 
> In CoS, the narrator tells us, "Cruel, sarcastic, and disliked by
> everybody except the students from his own house (Slytherin), Snape
> taught Potions."
> 
> Again, you can say Harry is biased, or the narrative voice is, or JKR
> is.  I still will tend to believe when told everyone dislikes Snape,
> but Slytherins don't.  You can have your own take on it, but I believe
> this shows bias.

Montavilla47:
On the other hand, we see that four Ravenclaw students and Ernie
Macmillan were interested enough in Potions, skilled enough, and 
*not* put off enough by Snape not to take advanced Potions.

Ernie Macmillan praises Snape's teaching of the D.A.D.A. and seems
to have no problem with Snape at all.  Even if he dislikes Snape, 
he seems satisfied with Snape's ability to teach.

Also, I'm not contending that Snape shows bias.  My point is that
his bias-showing is something that most students seem to take 
in stride, managing to learn potions just fine, thank you.

> Prep0strus: 
> Also, "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about
> the Gryffindors' work while the  Slytherins sniggered appreciatively.."
> 
> It's hard to twist that into a purely biased scenario, where Harry's
> viewpoint changes reality.  Snape IS making comments of some kind. 
> About Griffindor work.  Slytherins are appreciative of the comments. 
> Griffindors aren't.  It doesn't seem like comments are being directed
> at Slytherins that Griffindors can appreciate.
> 
> "Draco Malfoy, who was Snape's favorite student, kept flicking
> puffer-fish eyes at Ron and Harry, who knew that if they retaliated
> they would get detenion faster than you could say, 'Unfair'."
> 
> Harry's view? Yes.  But does anyone here doubt that it is true?

Montavilla47:
No, I don't doubt that it's true.  I also don't doubt that the 
waspish comments are based on actual faults with the work--
and that probably any remarks made to Slytherin students
are less "waspish."

But, as the students have fundamentally different temperaments
(as they are sorted by the hat accordingly), perhaps it's Snape 
finds it more effective to treat the students differently.  

And this difference, while recognized by more students than
Harry and Ron, only really seems to bother Harry.  Hermione,
for example, takes it in stride.  Neville, although intimidated
by Snape, does as well as he can.

> Prep0strus: 
> PoA:
> Here we have that lovely scene where Snape is going to test Neville's
> potion on his toad.  I know some people don't care, or make excuses
> about this, but it doesn't sound like Neville has been asked to leave
> his toad in his room.  And if Neville has messed his potion up to the
> point that Snape expects, I doubt he can have the appropriate antidote
> at his fingertips.  Regardless, this belittling, cruel, predatory
> method of teaching can in no way be considered good teaching.

Montavilla47:
And yet, Neville learns.  He learns well enough to produce a potion
that works perfectly.  And the subsequent cheering by the 
Gryffindors earns no detentions or points-taking.  Neville is 
allowed his triumph.

> Prep0strus: 
> In this same scene, Malfoy get Griffindors to do his work because of
> his 'injured' arm.  First of all, Snape, who is well aware of the
> relationship between Malfoy and Potter, makes Harry and Ron do this
> purely out of spite - there is no reason not to ask a fellow Slytherin
> to do it.  

Montavilla47:
Perhaps Snape felt that Ron and Harry would benefit from more
practice?  And again, wouldn't most students... you know... get
over it?

> Prep0strus: 
> And another scene in PoA, when he takes over for Lupin, where he
> treats the Griffindor class horribly, ignoring their lessons, ignoring
> Hermione's ability to answer his questions.  Because he hates Lupin?
> Because he hates Griffindors?  I don't care why.  It is simply more
> evidence of bad teaching.

Montavilla47:
I'll give you that one.  But I think it's based on Lupin and his 
wanting to make the students aware of Lupin's condition, than 
on oppressing the Gryffindors.

> GoF:
> 
> Harry & Draco attack each other simultaneously after he calls Hermione
> a Mudblood.  Snape shows up, not only extraordinarily cruelly insults
> Hermione's teeth, but takes FIFTY POINTS from griffindor and gives
> harry and ron detentions... while giving Draco nothing.  Ron hadn't
> even done anything (ok, not nothing - he, like Harry, yelled at Snape
> after he was cruel to Hermione), but considering the hexes that had
> just happened, and knowing neither had hexed Hermione, it took quite a
> bit of gall.

Montavilla47:
And that's why Snape deducts the points.  Not for the hexing, but 
because both of them are screaming obscenities.  As none of the 
Slytherins were disrespecting the authority of a teacher, he didn't
take any points from them.

> Prep0strus: 
> One more little scene shows Snape continuing to harass and taunt Harry
> when he is written up by Rita Skeeter.  He insults and demeans him in
> front of the entire class.

Montavilla47:
Yep.  I'll give you that one.  And that he does it in his own classroom is
inexcusable. Especially since it's taking away valuable classroom time.

> Prep0strus:
> Discipline and teaching go hand in hand.  Just as a teacher who lets
> his or her students run all over them in class would be a bad teacher.
>  It doesn't matter how good their lessons are if they have no
> discipline and get no respect.  

Montavilla47:
Yes, which is why Snape deducts so many points from Harry and
Ron when they start screaming at him.  He needs to maintain 
his authority--and we know from the many times that other
teachers have to remind Harry to use Snape's proper title that
Harry does no respect Snape as an authority figure.

> Prep0strus: 
> A teacher that is biased will also not
> receive respect, or a teacher that is cruel.  And without respect, the
> students have only fear to inspire them.  They will not love a class;
> they will not care about the class.  They will care about staying out
> of trouble.

Montavilla47;
And yet, a quarter of Harry's year cares enough about the class
to take the advanced lessons--even though Snape's standards
to continue are higher than McGonagall's.

> Prep0strus: 
> Demeaning some students, favoring others - this is not the hallmark of
> a good teacher.  You talk about their work, but do you really think
> Snape would compliment Hermione for making a perfect potion?  I mean,
> a lot of this comes down to what you can actually believe, shown or
> not?  Do you think he lets Draco get away with talking or making
> gestures in class that he would come down on Harry or Ron for?  If
> not, then we just have a difference of opinion of what we read in the
> text.

> I think if it's repeated that students think Snape is unfair and
> biased, it's likely true.  All these kids aren't idiots, and JKR isn't
> telling us it for no reason.  No one thinks Minerva is a pushover, but
> no one seems to think they're getting shafted by her either.

Montavilla47:
But we never hear from the kids who might feel that she was.  We
only hear from Ron and Harry, who are only mildly reprimanded
by McGonagall (in GoF) for dueling in class with fake wands.  

>From the kids who are assigned no homework for the week
leading up to a Quidditch match so that Harry can have more
practice time.

>From the boy who, far from getting the promised explusion
for getting caught flying when he was told to stay on the ground,
was rewarded by being made seeker of his team and given
the best broomstick currently available.

I imagine that Draco had something to say about that bit of
favoritism.

> Prep0strus:  
> And what he does to Neville... his poor performance is exacerbated by
> his fear of Snape.  Justified by his treatment by Snape.  Cruel,
> unnecessary, and poor teaching.  Neville may never have been a potions
> master, but he is unlikely to be able to accomplish even the smallest
> task in potions, and that is 100% Snape's fault.  

Montavilla47:
And yet, Neville thrives.  He goes from being someone who, as you
say, can't accomplish the smallest task in potions, to someone who,
as Harry observes, seems to be doing just fine in his Potions O.W.L.

> Prep0strus: 
> Snape doesn't give even chances.  And his cruelty, especially when it
> comes to Harry, Neville, and Hermione is absolutely uncalled for.  He
> might be good with potions, with dada, with any other branch of magic.
>  But he's a bad teacher.  And let's not forget - these aren't adults
> he's dealing with. 11, 12, 13 year old kids he treats like this.  it's
> absolutely despicable.  And we're SUPPOSED to find it despicable. 
> It's only in the amazingly broad and wacky world of fandom that it
> could be found not so.  Which is a wonderful thing, I suppose, but
> also frustrating.  In RL, I think Snape would be having more
> parent-teacher conferences, mediated by the headmaster, than I think
> he'd be willing to put up with.

Montavilla47:
Are we supposed to find it despicable?  A reader once asked 
JKR why Dumbledore allowed Snape to teach, and her reply was
along the lines that Dumbledore believes that students need to
learn about all sorts of things, including nasty teachers.

As someone who has experienced different types of teachers, 
I got that quote immediately.  We all meet up with teachers that
we don't like, or don't respect.  It's part of life to learn how to 
deal with them.  

Most of the students do seem to learn this lesson, as evidenced
by Umbridge's grudging admittance of their O.W.L. scores.  Also,
as shown by the quarter of Harry's class who get Outstanding
scores on their Potions O.W.L.

Even Harry, whose hatred of Snape burns with the power of 
ten thousand stars, gets an E on his O.W.L.  He does no better
than that in any of his other classes, except for the D.A.D.A., 
in which he has had extraordinary practice (and extra lessons
from Lupin, something no other student benefited from).

Hermione, for the points *not* awarded to her from Snape, and
all the compliments not received, receives as high a grade
on her O.W.L.s.

I conclude that I am *supposed* to see Snape's favoritism 
as something unpleasant, but not terribly detrimental to 
anyone's learning of the subject.  The real obstacles to 
learning are 1) Boring delivery (as in the History of Magic), and
2) a teacher who accepts substandard work (as in Divination).

Those are the classes that Harry and Ron do poorly in.

Montavilla47