[HPforGrownups] Elder Wand mastery (was Re: need help for all of my confuse!)

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 175829

 Julie H:
So -- the logic of this wand appears to be:

1) Stealing the wand does not make you 'master'
2) Somehow you must defeat the current 'master' in some kind of fight. This
fight does
NOT have to involve actual fighting with the Elder Wand. (Indeed, it seems
to me that the
only way to take legit possession is to win some kind of battle where the
current master is
NOT using the Elder wand, because... it's an unbeatable wand in the hands of
the master,
yes?)
3) The Wand has some sort of built in 'sensor' registering such defeats --
cumulatively, in
fact. (Because for Harry to be "the master it would not kill," the wand has
to have
registered Draco's ownership, though Draco never touched it, and then
Draco's disarming
by Harry.)

Debbie:
I agree with these rules, except that Xeno Lovegood says only that the wand
must be captured from its previous owner.  The concept of capture does not
necessarily involve a fight, although I agree that one does not capture the
elder wand merely by picking it up ("the manner of taking matters" according
to Ollivander).  Rather, it must be picked up against the will of the owner,
and perhaps it is also required to keep it by force ("where a wand has been
won, its allegiance will change").  But I think these can be demonstrated to
have happened in each instance.
Julie H:
All very murky, but you CAN make it make sense if you puzzle over it for a
while.
Nevertheless, there are still holes in the logic. To wit -- if Gregorevich
was the master and
if the Grindelwald ripoff did not make HIM the master, who WAS the master
after
Grindelwald stole the wand? Still Gregorevich? How did the defeat of
Grindelwald make
Dumbledore the master if Grindelwald truly was NOT the master to begin with?
But if
Grindelwald was NOT the master, then how did he amass such power in a way
that was
attributed at least in part to his possession of this wand? But if he WAS
the master, then
how the heck could Dumbledore beat him in a duel? But if he WASN'T the
master, then
wasn't Gregorevich still the master -- and presumably not actually defeated
until LV killed
him, which would have made LV the master????



Debbie:
 I think the rules can be made to work with the facts we're given:

1. Gregorovitch was the legitimate master of the wand.
2. Grindelwald became the master of the wand by picking up the wand in
Gregorovitch's workroom, and then executing a Stunning Spell on Gregorovitch
when he burst into the workroom; I believe that Grindelwald pocketed the
elder wand, and then deliberately waited for Gregorovitch in the window in
order to defeat him properly (presumably using his own wand, as the elder
wand would have recognized Gregorovitch as the master).
3. Dumbledore became master by defeating Grindelwald in a duel.  If, as the
tale says, the elder wand must always win duels for its owner, then
Grindelwald must not have been using the elder wand when he was defeated.
Perhaps the key to Grindelwald's defeat was that Dumbledore switched the
elder wand for another before the duel.  Dumbledore would have known better
than to duel Grindelwald if Grindelwald was using the elder wand.
Dumbledore does tell Harry that he believed he had the greater skill, so
Dumbledore can reasonably be believed to have won a duel with equal
weapons.  (For an alternative possible explanation, see #4.)
4. Draco took the wand from Dumbledore by force.  Dumbledore did not permit
Draco to take it (otherwise Draco could not be said to have captured it and
would not be recognized as master).  However, Draco executed the spell while
Dumbledore was busy immobilising Harry.  Draco took advantage of this
opportunity, making the wand rightfully his.

And the rest is history.

The only additional rule I would add to your list is that the the power of
the elder wand does not protect the master from having it taken from him
unless the master is using the wand against the would-be taker.  Dumbledore
was busy putting a spell Harry, and therefore was vulnerable to Draco at
that moment.  I suppose Dumbledore could have similarly taken advantage of
such a moment in capturing the wand from Grindelwald, except that I wouldn't
call that beating Grindelwald in a duel.

One more point:

Julie H:
LV thinks the Elder Wand isn't as juiced-up as it ought to be, according to
its reputation,
though why he thinks this is somewhat unclear ("The Elder Wand," page
656-57).

Debbie:
I think this is explained.  He's expecting super performance from the wand,
but he's only getting the same performance he always got.  ("I have
performed my usual magic.  I am extraordinary, but this wand . . . no.  It
has not revealed the wonders it has promised.  I feel no difference between
this wand and the one I procured from Ollivander all those years ago.")

Debbie
who hopes her understanding of the elder wand is better than Voldemort's


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