[HPforGrownups] Elder Wand mastery (was Re: need help for all of my confuse!)

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 175848

Julie H:
Ah, well, sure. If we want to give Grindelwald a different wand, then the
problem dissolves.
But it's a pretty key point to be totally ignored in the text. Because the
facts we're given
are: a) Grindelwald "acquired" the Elder wand from Gregorevich; b)
Grindelwald and
Dumbledore had a very famous duel in which Dumbledore beat Grindelwald; and
c)
Dumbledore became master of the wand by virtue of that duel. If the wand's
unbeatable in
a duel, then there only seem to be a few choices -- Grindelwald wasn't
really 'master' due
to the manner of taking (despite the fact of his great power partially being
attributed to
his possession of the wand), or Dumbledore did something we can't possibly
imagine to
defeat him, outside the normal context of a duel, or, as you said,
Grindelwald was not
using that wand (though we're given no reason to think that he wouldn't be).
(A fourth
choice of course being Steve's hypothesis that the wand is, in actuality,
NOT unbeatable.)

Debbie:
There are other possible explanations that are hinted at in the
text.  Elphias Doge implies that the Dumbledore-Grindelwald duel was an
awesome spectacle between two spectacularly talented wizards.  Rita Skeeter
implies that the historic duel never took place at all and Grindelwald
basically surrendered.   Neither of these correspondents is reliable, but it
suggests that the truth is somewhere in between.

In King's Cross, Dumbledore says merely, "I won the duel.  I won the wand."
He also says he was not afraid magically of the confrontation, suggesting
that either he knew that the wand was not unbeatable, or that his profession
of greater skill meant that he could divert Grindelwald's focus from himself
and take the wand that way (as Draco did on the Tower).  The latter
alternative would not be too different from Rita Skeeter's version.

Interestingly, in the reading of the tale of the three brothers, the eldest
asked for a wand that must always win duels for its owner.  The power of the
actual gift was not described, whereas Death specifically told the second
brother what the stone would do.  So maybe the wand was more powerful than
any in existence, but would still not necessarily win duels against another
wizard of greater skill.

I see a number of alternatives that might work, so I'm less frustrated by
the failure of JKR to spell it out, or for her editors to make her do so.

Julie H:
All LV says is he "feels no difference" -- which implies that he expected
the wand to
provide some sort of different sensory feedback than his own very powerful
wand. Since
the only real evidence of his mastery would seem to be ... that he would be
unbeatable in a
duel, and we know no one has beaten him at that point, with that wand or any
other. But,
you know, we don't have enough info to really surmise what sort of
difference would be
expected, beyond the obvious, so ... we're back to "complex and mysterious"
again. I think
his comment about the wand "not revealing the wonders it has promised"
actually muddies
the water in that it implies that he expected to SEE something different
than with an
ordinary wand (again, a performance proof). If she'd left that out, the
"feels no difference"
would probably have been a stronger statement, since there is a good bit in
DH about how
the wand feels to a wizard, a feeling of affinity.

Debbie:
I don't find this to be a problem.  Voldemort was not particularly learned
in wand lore, so he's listing the ways in which the elder wand has
disappointed him.  He expected to feel the power of the elder wand and he
expected superior performance, which I take to mean stronger spells.   He
got neither, so he knew something was wrong, and correctly determined that
he was not the master of the wand.

Debbie
wondering how psychopath Voldemort could feel an affinity for any wand


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