Snape's Request/Ungrateful Werewolf/Sorting and Snape/Dumbledore Duel

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 175855

Fifth post today, so I shall attempt to emulate Catlady's inimitable 
style
<g> with responses to Lanval, Sarah, Magpie, and Bart.

Lanval wrote in:
Re: Snape's Request gave Harry a second chance? (Was: 
Snape/Dumbledore thingummy) 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/175810
> Not too ambiguous, is it?

> This, I believe goes for all the short Pensieve vignettes. They are
meant to clear things up, to give crucial information that had been
lacking -- not to provide red herrings, steer the reader off the
trail, confuse, raise doubts, whatever. 

zgirnius:
It is all crystal clear and open to only one interpretation? I don't 
find them so at all. They are meant to clear big picture things up, 
and they do. Snape loved Lily, he was a true Death Eater, later he 
was loyal to Dumbledore and killed him on his orders, Harry has to go 
die. The business of George's ear and the sword is explained. 
(Personally, I don't see what the function of excusing the ear bit is 
in the larger story. Dumbledore told Snape to play the part in the 
raid, it could have been left at that, though I am so grateful it was 
cleared up, because it really ran counter to my ideas about Snape and 
was a big source of doubt while reading the book).

What is being discussed (about why he turned and what he cared about, 
and to what extent that changed by the end of the series) is finer 
detail of Snape's character and relationships as they come across in 
the text. I think it is clear that Rowling was attempting a bit of 
that as well. (That cutting off George's ear was shown not to be a 
Machiavellian act to help Snape's cover, but a rescue attempt for 
Lupin, surely says something). But that's less crucial to her 
project, and also far more subjective. Someone who came into the book 
thinking the worst of Sev may need more along those lines than 
someone who came in with a rosier view of the guy. 

Finally, the scenes are still, also, a work of art. It does not (to 
me, anyway) read like an infodump, since I find it the single most 
beautiful chapter in the series. The dialogue and interactions are 
carefully presented and convincing, we see evolution in how Snape is 
presented (he was rather inarticulate as a boy and young man), 
Dumbledore's relationship with him changed, etc. Something like that 
is going to be ambiguous. 

OK, examples
in the second scene, by your rules (all that is said is 
true), we learn that Snape had no prejudice against Muggleborns 
personally, and even, lived blissfully unaware that such a thing as 
blood prejudice existed in the Potterverse, before he came to 
Hogwarts. After all, he tells Lily that it makes no difference. Of 
course, if we start thinking what his hesitation, followed by his 
eager look at her, mean, we might draw a different conclusion. 

In that same scene, we learn that things are fine at the Snape house. 
Snape says so. The leaves? Snape must just like playing with them. 
And Snape did not drop a branch on Tuney, accidentally or otherwise, 
it was a remarkable coincidence. Oh wait, the narrator calls that a 
lie. But we should not consider the possibility that anything else 
is, I guess.

The discussion about whether Snape trusted Voldemort happening on 
another thread is a waste of time – Dumbledore says he did in their 
second meeting, so that's it. (Care to enlighten the posters on that 
thread why, then, Snape seemed to desperate to obtain Dumbledore's 
protection for Lily in the first meeting?)

> Lanval:
> The story is almost over, here's what *really* happened. If Snape 
anwers DD's question whether he has come to care for Harry with a cry 
of "For *him*?", and produces the doe patronus, to which DD 
replies, "After all this time?", then that's exactly what it means. 
Snape only cared for Lily, and not for Harry. 

zgirnius:
That scene, by the way, has a very interesting omission, which I 
noticed yesterday night. Snape does not agree to the plan. Not in 
that scene, not in any other scene. I wonder what that means. Seems 
like a really big thing to leave open if we are supposed to have all 
our answers
maybe she just forgot.

I do wonder when he decided he would play along, and why.

> Sarah wrote in:
Ungrateful Werewolf ( Was Re: Character Given A Reprieve) 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/175832
Which category S&J fall into is less clear.
> I tend to think that they were *sometimes* bullies and *sometimes*
"fun pranksters." I note that McGonagall--who I suspect has very
little tolerance for bullying--fondly recalls S&J as likeable and
talented troublemakers (like F&G).

zgirnius:
Hmm. That's not how I would characterize her discussion of her 
memories of that group. It comes up only once, in PoA, and she does 
not sound all that fond, and uses negative terms to describe them, 
except for their talent. (They must have been truly *outstanding* in 
her class, Transfiguration, given their Animagus accomplishments.)

> PoA:
> "The worst?" said Madam Rosmerta, her voice alive with 
curiosity, "Worse than murdering all those poor people, you mean?"
> "I certainly do," said Fudge.
> "I ca'A believe that. What could possibly be worse?" "You say you 
remember him at Hogwarts, Rosmerta," mur- mured Professor 
McGonagall. "Do you remember who his-best friend was?"
> "Naturally," said Madam Rosmerta, with a small laugh. "Never saw 
one without the other, did you? The number of times I had them in 
here -- ooh, they used to make me laugh. Quite the double act, Sirius 
Black and James Potter!"
> Harry dropped his tankard with a loud clunk. Ron kicked him.
> "Precisely," said Professor McGonagall. "Black and Potter. 
Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very bright, of course -- 
exceptionally bright, in fact -- but I don't think we've ever had 
such a pair of troublemakers --"
> "I dunno," chuckled Hagrid. "Fred and George Weasley could give 'em 
a run fer their money."

zgirnius:
She calls them ringleaders of their gang, and troublemakers. There is 
no `stage direction' softening her statement, either. (No fond smile, 
no adverb modifying `said', no twinkle in her eye, etc.) Hagrid and 
Rosmerta clearly remember them fondly, as they definitely express 
fondness and amusement at their antics. I would say you are free to 
interpret her as fond if that is your preference, but she could have 
said exactly the same thing of bullies who grew up to be in the 
Order
.

And I am free to think the latter. Rowling does a thing in her 
writing, with having several characters give an impression, and not 
having any flat contradiction, to hide stuff. SWM was supposed to be 
a shock, because while PoA introduced the idea the Marauders may have 
bullied Snape, an awful lot of that was presented by Snape and the 
Marauders themselves, and Snape definitely looked worse to a lot of 
readers, so why believe him? (It worked on me <g>!) If this was 
intended as corroboration of sorts, adding Rosmerta and Hagrid's 
positive statements hides it nicely.

> Sarah:
> Well, yes, but the fact remains that he invented the "Levicorpus"
spell and it gained quite a lot of popularity during MWPP/S' time at
Hogwarts. Surely Snape must have *used* this spell (probably more
than one time) for it to catch on, as it were. 

zgirnius:
And Harry used it on Ron, which both considered good fun. Perhaps 
Snape amused his dormmates in like manner, and *they* used it 
elsewhere, making it all the vogue . We really don't know. I find 
Lily's complaint in fifth year about nasty hexing/cursing by 
Mulciber, and comments about her future husband the toerag, 
suggestive of the idea that Snape was not, in fact, doing much of 
this sort of thing at all. If he were, would Lily not have complained 
about that?

> Magpie wrote in:
Re: Of Sorting and Snape 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/175838
> His walk to his own destruction (DD's plan) doesn't seem
all that Slytherin to me. It's courage. And he's faced his own
destruction before, also with courage.

zgirnius:
Well, yes, courage is the Gryffindor quality. But the biggest symbol 
of that courage is the Sword of Gryffindor, the tool of a warrior. 
When James expresses his enthusiasm for that house, he mimes 
brandishing a sword. While courage can take many forms, what seems to 
be the `typical' idea of Gryffindor courage is a specific sort of 
courage, valor, boldness, daring, something like that. A hot-blooded 
sort of courage. 

The walk into the Forest did not require courage of that sort. It was 
a cold-blooded action. (Sorry, alchemy/elements ignoramus here, but 
it seems to me that's more Slytherinish and watery, right?) Further, 
two prominent characters display this `type' of courage in DH and 
Harry hears of it (in Regulus's case) and sees it (in Snape's case – 
yes, Snape did not know he would be dying when he entered the Shack, 
but the death Harry sees is something that was always a possibility 
whenever Snape came into Voldemort's presence, and he's been doing it 
for years).

Magpie:
He treats his inferiors okay.

zgirnius:
On a purely formal level, as in Harry's view Snape is probably the 
bravest man Harry ever knew, Harry acknowledges him as at least an 
equal in this one regard. Personally, I doubt he regards Regulus 
Black as an inferior either. They are both dead, of course, and I get 
that this disappoints you (not the specific characters, the lack of a 
living Slytherin Harry must respect in this way). But you are 
presuming that he would still reflexively assume, upon encountering a 
Slytherin not already known to him, that the Slytherin is an 
inferior. Whereas it seems to me that the respect Harry demonstrates 
for both of the dead Slytherins in question shows that he would not.

> Bart wrote in:
How did Dumbledore Win the Duel? 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/175841
Bart:
> So, here is my idea of how DD won the duel with Waldo: He used 
PHYSICAL means to disarm him.

zgirnius:
Not at all an unreasonable suggestion. It is how Harry became Master 
of the Elder Wand, after all! Though it was Draco's own wand he 
wrested from Draco's hand by main force. This action was enough to 
win him Draco's wand's allegiance, proving Muggle means can be used 
to win the allegiance of *a* wand, and therefore, of the Elder Wand.