Pensieve memories (Re: Snape's request...etc)

[julie]

No: HPFGUIDX 175856


> 
> > Lanval:
> > The story is almost over, here's what *really* happened. If Snape 
> anwers DD's question whether he has come to care for Harry with a 
cry 
> of "For *him*?", and produces the doe patronus, to which DD 
> replies, "After all this time?", then that's exactly what it means. 
> Snape only cared for Lily, and not for Harry. 
> 
> zgirnius:
> That scene, by the way, has a very interesting omission, which I 
> noticed yesterday night. Snape does not agree to the plan. Not in 
> that scene, not in any other scene. I wonder what that means. Seems 
> like a really big thing to leave open if we are supposed to have 
all 
> our answers
maybe she just forgot.
> 
> I do wonder when he decided he would play along, and why.

Julie:
Funny you ask that, because I was just thinking today, "How
does Dumbledore's "Severus...please..." on the Tower fit into
Snape's Pensieve memories?" We get the impression Snape has
agreed to the plan, and he has promised to kill Dumbledore
when the time comes. Dumbledore seems to take that promise
as a certainty ("You gave me your word, Severus") but he 
does at the final moment pressure--or encourage--Snape to
go through with the promise. I think once Snape committed 
this act, he committed himself finishing the plan, even 
though the plan had "changed" from what he had always 
thought it was (saving Harry and preparing him to defeat
Voldemort) to sacrificing Harry to destroy Voldemort/
save the WW.

Which does make me wonder about Snape's look of hatred
and disgust when he killed Dumbledore. I'm sure the look
reflected in part his feeling Dumbledore at that moment,
who'd extracted a promise out of him to do something he
didn't want to do, and in part his own self-disgust (so
reminiscent of Harry's self-disgust at forcing the cave
potion down Dumbledore's throat). But I think this look
also reflected Snape's feelings about the plan in its
*totality*, both disgust with Dumbledore for setting up
Harry (and Snape), and with himself for now committing 
to this plan which would undo what he'd worked toward,
his only focus for 16 years (saving Harry).
 
Rather ironic I think that it is in this moment, when
Snape KILLS Dumbledore, that he proves himself truly
Dumbledore's Man rather than merely Lily's Man. I.e. he
decides to do what is *right*-or what is best for the WW
and everyone in it-rather than what easier (to serve his
own self-interest by following his long-held vow to keep  
Lily Potter's son safe in proof of his love and remorse.) 

On another point, I don't believe young Snape, when he
first came to Dumbledore begging for Lily to be saved,
ever said or implied that he *wanted* Harry or even
James to die. It was Dumbledore who said "Could you not
ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"
and Snape replied "I have--I have asked him--" At which
point Dumbledore says "You disgust me" and notes that
Snape doesn't care about the lives of the father and son,
that they can die as long as Snape gets what he wants 
(Lily spared).

It's a small difference, but it is a difference. Snape
did not say he offered up Harry (or James) in "exchange"
for Lily's life. It wouldn't even make sense for him to
do so, because Voldemort is already determined to kill
Harry anyway, believing he's a threat. So there is no
choice of "one or the other." The best Snape can do is
beg Voldemort to spare Lily. Which is surely what Snape
meant when he said "I have--I have asked him--." (Though,
yes, if Voldemort gave him a choice, Snape surely would 
have been willing to sacrifice Harry for Lily, which was
the implication in Dumbledore's words). 

Finally, what are everyone's thoughts on when Snape began
teaching at Hogwarts? I've always assumed it was at the
beginning of the term, in September (and the Potters died
the following month, on October 31). But that timeline 
doesn't seem clear in the Prince's Tale chapter. While
Dumbledore does ask Snape "What will you give me in return,
Severus?" to which Snape replies "Anything", we then get
a fade out to Snape in Dumbledore's office after James and
Lily have been killed. It is at this point that Dumbledore
says "If you loved Lily Evans, if you truly loved her, then
your way forward is clear...Help me protect Lily's son."

On my first reading I was assuming Snape went back to 
Voldemort after the first conversation with Dumbledore,
then became a teacher once he promised to help protect
Lily's son. But now I wonder if the "What will you give
me in return?" is a reference to Dumbledore turning Snape
into *his* spy, and a double-agent (with Snape telling
Voldemort he is spying "on" Dumbledore for him--and I
think it's canon Voldemort wanted Snape to get a teaching
position at Hogwarts for just that purpose). So Snape
was already enscounced at Hogwarts when the Potters were
killed, as has always seemed to be implied. 

Any other thoughts?

Julie, thinking there are quite a few unspoken moments
in those Pensieve memories, just as in real life...