Dumbledore Disgusted (was: Snape's Request gave Harry a second chance?)

[frumenta]

No: HPFGUIDX 175866

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill" 
<leahstill at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frumenta" <p_yanna@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" <judy@> wrote:
> >> > I was just thinking about this yesterday, and I believe it is 
> yet  another of JKR's inconsistencies. (massive snip)
> > The whole thing about Trelawney *knowing* that 
> > > Snape heard the Prophecy seems like a plothole to me. 
>  
> > Mim:
> > 
> > Dumbledore didn't know exactly how the Prophecy would work but 
he 
> > wanted Voldemort to act and go after that baby who had powers 
that 
> > he didn't know. Otherwise he could have stopped Snape. It 
appears 
> to 
> > me that at that point Dumbledore had been running out of ideas 
so 
> > the thought of this newborn saviour who the Dark Lord would mark 
> as 
> > his equal and who would have extraordinary powers, was actually 
> > needed.
> > 
> > Perhaps the Potters were never meant to survive.
> >(snip)
> 
> Leah:
> 
> So we have either Puppet master Dumbledore or inconsistent JKR. I 
> think there may also be a third possibility, Que Sera, Sera 
> Dumbledore.
> 
> If  PMDD is intended, then I would agree with Mim that DD was 
> wanting somehow to kick start the prophecy.   It is a commonplace 
of 
> classical myths, Perseus, Oedipus, Paris, that a prophecy is 
> activated  by an attempt to avoid it.  This is of course exactly 
how 
> Voldemort reacts.  By trying to destroy Prophecy Boy he marks him 
as 
> his equal, and sows the seeds of destruction.  This reading of 
> course has the problem of making DD as culpable in the deaths of 
> James and Lily as Snape himself.   

Mim:

Not necessarily. Dumbledore doesn't explicitly know that if he lets 
the Prophecy be known it will lead to the death of the Potters. But 
he wants the child attacked since he has some reassurance that the 
child will have power the Dark Lord knows not. Both PPDD and QSSD 
can justify this to themselves.

We don't get any hint of this in 
> DH, whereas we are shown other instances of DD's flaws, so I think 
> it is probably not the right interpretation.   If I am wrong, then 
> Snape becomes the scapegoat for DD's guilt, takes it entirely on 
> himself and eventually redeems himself (making Snape rather than 
DD 
> or Harry the Aslan-like figure in the books.  I am not sure that 
> this would have been consciously intended by the author :)).

Mim:

But unconsciously it is a possible reading and either way, Snape 
isn't blameless in this. He did deliver the Prophecy to his master, 
he did make his bad choices and he did play his part in causing 
Lily's death. That Dumbledore would not acknowledge any possible 
guilt for himself doesn't seem impossible to me, he's at war and 
sacrifices are necessary. He sees the bigger picture.

Leah: 
> Taking the third option second:  it is a given fact that Snape has 
> heard some of the prophecy.   With the information DD has on that 
> night, he can surmise that this may be (a) very helpful in the 
fight 
> against VM, (b) very unhelpful or (c) ultimately  of no importance 
> at all.  

Mim:
a) Means that he wants to use the Chosen One rather than protect him.
b) Seems unlikely, it's not like Voldemort will hear the Prophecy 
and not act and c) Very unlikely since Dumbledore obviously believes 
the Prophecy to be true. 


Leah:
> A major problem with either PMDD or QSSDD is:  how exactly did DD 
> know how much of the prophecy Snape had heard?   

Mim:

Trelawney said that at some point during her interview Snape was 
discovered (and could have been apprehended if Dumbledore wanted to 
stop him from going to his Master) and thrown out. We're not exactly 
sure how she knew but since Dumbledore became aware of Snape 
listening at the keyhole, he probably knew at which part of the 
prophecy this happened.