Lily shutting the door WAS: Re: Dumbledore Disgusted

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 175908

> > Alla:
> > 
> > Sure if Lily had something to answer for, I would agree that 
> > characters in Potterverse at sixteen are held to it. But Lily is 
> > culpable? I find it truly mind boggling.
> 
> Ceridwen:
> If what we're shown is the truth, and all of it, then yes, 
culpable, 
> for not giving a second chance.  The second chance seems to be a 
> hallmark of the Good Guys.  Harry gives second chances, Dumbledore 
> gives second chances.  Why not Lily? <SNIP>

Alla:

And I am asking why Lily. NOT all good guys give second chances as 
far as I can remember, no? I mean, it is great and all that, but 
since when the refusal of injured party to forgive is something to 
hold the injured party for as culpable, real or fictious.

Since when is it their fault? We are not even talking about injured 
party pursuing revenge against the attacker here, we are just talking 
about refusal to forgive, no?

I think it is an absolute right of the victim to do so. And no, I am 
not talking about Snape and even Sirius holding grudges, I am not 
talking about victim going out and doing bad things to the attacker, 
just refusing to have anything to do with him.



> Alla:
<SNIP>
> > **She** is culpable? Even if she did not give Snape just a second 
> > chance, since when it is a reason to hold character culpable?
> 
> Ceridwen:
> I'm not sure what you're asking here.  If she didn't give Snape a 
> second chance, still as a character, she should not be held 
> culpable?  Or it's strange to hold a literary creation culpable?

Alla:

See above. It is very strange for me that you are suggesting that 
injured party should be hold accountable for refusal to forgive.

I give extra points for being forgiving in my mind, I do **not** hold 
it against the victim if she says no. And again, I am sure I will get 
the response what about Snape. I am not talking about Lily going out 
and doing bad things to Snape, THEN I would hold her accountable, for 
sure. But just refusing to have anything to do with him? No, not in 
my book IMO.


 
Ceridwen:
> But I also prefer to see the Good Guys held to a higher standard 
> because they're more capable of holding that standard, and it's 
what 
> is expected of the term "Good Guys".  I love to see the Good Guys 
> being Good.  It's what they're supposed to do best.  Since giving 
> second chances has been held up as some standard for the Good Guys 
in 
> the series, I expect to see the Good Guys doing it, or suffering 
for 
> the momentary lapse.  Again, if this is the third, sixth, twentieth 
> time, that chances the scene.  But this is the only scene we have 
of 
> Snape apologizing, if I recall correctly.

Alla:

I do not really care if it is second time or twentieth, honestly. But 
I think the possibility that it is more than second time is suggested 
by " I had been making excuses for you for years"

I do not believe that it is Lily's obligation to do so.


 
> Ceridwen:
> Yes, because this is real life.  Our standards are colored in 
gray.  
> Someone else might offer second or even third chances, because the 
> person means a lot to them, and/or they hold out hope that the 
person 
> can be educated.  Lily is a fictitious character who has been 
> presented, through not having much said about her, true, as nearly 
a 
> saint.  I expect fictionally saint-like behavior out of her.

Alla:

Why do you expect not even human behaviour but Saint behavior from 
her? I think it was clear in this book that she is so not a saint, 
she is IMO strong **good** girl, but so not a saint and I would not 
hold her to saint standards, IMO.

How much  hurt in your opinion Lily should have taken from Snape 
before it would be Okay for her to shut the door?

Would something  like what happened with Mary suffice whatever it 
was? Or maybe she knows that this word is a code word that means that 
anybody who uses it, would be quite Okay to do bad things to 
mudbloods?

Maybe she finally got scared that despite Snape claiming that she is 
okay, he will not stop before doing bad things to her?


IMO of course.



Alla.