Dumbledore Disgusted (was: Snape's Request gave Harry a second chance?)

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 175905

Ceridwen:
> <SNIP>
> > So I would put Lily at 
> > sixteen at the same moral place as everyone else in the series is 
> > supposed to be.  She definitely shut the door against Snape 
without 
> > giving him a chance.  She is culpable, according to what we have 
> seen 
> > of others of nearly the same age.
> > 
> > *(snip)*  Never mind that she got 
> > an apology, never mind that Dumbledore is held up as being 
somehow 
> > saintly for offering second chances, she can shut the door and 
have 
> > no repercussions.  <SNIP>
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sure if Lily had something to answer for, I would agree that 
> characters in Potterverse at sixteen are held to it. But Lily is 
> culpable? I find it truly mind boggling.

Ceridwen:
If what we're shown is the truth, and all of it, then yes, culpable, 
for not giving a second chance.  The second chance seems to be a 
hallmark of the Good Guys.  Harry gives second chances, Dumbledore 
gives second chances.  Why not Lily?

Alla:
> The girl at whom Snape threw the worst insult in WW, girl who was 
> making excuses for him for years, just had enough.
> 
> In my view she is not giving Snape not second chance here, but 
> probably tenth or twentieth.

Ceridwen:
Then, that's different.  If what we were shown is the last of several 
similar incidents, then Lily has gone beyond second chances.  Thing 
is, it could be either, the only time an apology was offered, or the 
twentieth time and she was fed up (and I wouldn't blame her).

Alla:
> **She** is culpable? Even if she did not give Snape just a second 
> chance, since when it is a reason to hold character culpable?

Ceridwen:
I'm not sure what you're asking here.  If she didn't give Snape a 
second chance, still as a character, she should not be held 
culpable?  Or it's strange to hold a literary creation culpable?

I think, as I said above, that she should be held accountable for her 
own actions, within the story, of course.  Lily Evans Potter of the 
HP series doesn't really exist.  I expect more out of the Good Guys 
than I do out of the Bad.  And if the Bad Guys make a mistake and 
don't offer a second chance and it comes back to bite them, then they 
get what they deserve.  It's probably not the first time, since 
they're Bad, so the punishment will be according to the time we saw 
and the times we didn't see.  There is a bit of wish fulfillment in 
seeing the Bad Guys punished in almost every story, I think.

But I also prefer to see the Good Guys held to a higher standard 
because they're more capable of holding that standard, and it's what 
is expected of the term "Good Guys".  I love to see the Good Guys 
being Good.  It's what they're supposed to do best.  Since giving 
second chances has been held up as some standard for the Good Guys in 
the series, I expect to see the Good Guys doing it, or suffering for 
the momentary lapse.  Again, if this is the third, sixth, twentieth 
time, that chances the scene.  But this is the only scene we have of 
Snape apologizing, if I recall correctly.

Alla:
> I cannot help but having RL metaphors again. Trust me, if somebody 
> called me what I consider to be the RL metaphor of that name and 
> while apologising to me continued to think that it is okay to call 
> other jewish people that name, there would be slamming of the door 
> for sure.

Ceridwen:
Yes, because this is real life.  Our standards are colored in gray.  
Someone else might offer second or even third chances, because the 
person means a lot to them, and/or they hold out hope that the person 
can be educated.  Lily is a fictitious character who has been 
presented, through not having much said about her, true, as nearly a 
saint.  I expect fictionally saint-like behavior out of her.

Alla:
*(snip)*
> I would run for my life from such a person. I give a lot of credit 
to 
> Lily for sticking with Snape for so long.
> 
> She must have really liked him as a friend, if she was willing to 
> ignore that for so long IMO.

Ceridwen:
She's mentioned to him before about calling other people that word, 
but this was apparently the first time he's ever called her that.  
Yes, I think she really did like him a lot, as a friend.  They were 
friends since childhood, and that's difficult to give up.  It could 
have been a mix of the two issues, Snape calling others this name, 
then calling her the name, but when I put it like that, I think, so, 
Lily minded others being called this name but not enough to stop 
seeing her friend.  It's only when it gets personal that she turns 
her back.  I don't like this interpretation at all.

Mim:
*(snipping canon)*
> > He was apprehended eavesdropping. Aberforth (I'm guessing) is 
> pretty 
> > much holding him by the scruff of his neck here. Dumbledore could 
> do 
> > what he wanted with him but chose to let him go.
> >

Alla:
> 
> Thank you, but this part I remember. I do not see how it follows 
from 
> Aberforth holding him to Dumbledore could do whatever he wanted and 
> chose to let him go. 
> 
> For example Snape nonverbally hexed Aberforth and run for his life 
> and yeah, Dumbledore could not stop him. As we saw Dumbledore can 
get 
> hurt in the battle. IMO of course.

Ceridwen:
I think Mim mentioned earlier, or someone did, that DD could have 
Obliviated the memory from Snape - we saw how quickly that can be 
done when Shacklebolt modified Marietta's memory in OotP.  It would 
have taken as much time, or less, than it would have taken Snape to 
nonverbally hex Aberforth, and DD is the more powerful wizard, 
especially at this point.  If Snape had been ordered by LV to seek a 
position already, Snape wouldn't want to duel Dumbledore, either.

(I think he wouldn't have run, or he would have had to answer to LV 
for botching this or any other future chance to get into Hogwarts, 
but this part is really speculating, so YMMV)

Ceridwen.