Thoughts on Snape from a non Snape Fan (uh-oh)

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 175968

> Prep0strus:
> Thanks for not drawing and quartering me. :)  I'm with you on the
> Draco thing, which is why Draco's treatment in DH bugs me more than
> many other things.  I wanted some addressing of the fact that
> Dumbledore and Snape 'saved his soul'.  I guess it's implied... but I
> wanted Draco to earn what he had been given.  Perhaps even to undergo
> the transformation we see in Dudley, who, it could be argued,
> 'deserved' it less.  Not based on legitimate anything - just on time
> devoted to a character.  HBP was really the book of Snape and of
> Draco.  You might think it was Dumbledore and Harry, but DD's story
> was really in DH... and I just really thought Draco's arc would come
> to a really interesting conclusion.

Montavilla47:
You're welcome.  I agree with you about Draco.  I'm actually a lot
more okay with what happened between Snape and Dumbledore
than I am with the way that Draco went.  

And you know, it's not that Draco himself disappointed me.  It's 
that I have to squint and tilt the book sideways to figure out 
whether or not Draco was "good."  

As someone said, he was about as helpful to the "good" side
as a chocolate hammer.  Yes, he refuses to identify the 
Trio at Malfoy Manor.  That's a big step for Draco, but it
helps not one little bit.

>  > Montavilla47:
> > So, what bugs me?  Partly, it's that I always imagined
> > Dumbledore welcoming Snape back to the "right" side
> > with an extended hand--like the hand of God in the
> > Michaelangelo painting.  Now I know that it was with
> > wrath and a demand for payment.
> 
> Prep0strus:
<snip>
> Choose the balance of his reason for yourself.  But he gets a spy.  A
> spy 'beholden' to him - at least in Snape's mind.  Snape is crazy with
> fear and grief - and love.  To make this deal, I think Dumbledore can
> trust him more if there is a kind of tit-for-tat.  Maybe he thinks it
> is more how Slytherins operate - not expecting something for nothing.
>  But I think it is a stronger tie to him.  The second reason - he is
> saving Snape himself, saving his soul.  DD and Snape both know that he
> can't ask snape to simply relinquish being a DE - it is a death
> sentence.  And DD may even feel that that is not enough to save
> Snape's soul - Draco is stopped from committing murder, but what sins
> are on Snape's soul that he needs to atone for after being a death
> eater?  Not the least of which putting the potter family in danger to
> begin with (and the longbottoms).  By requesting 'payment', DD gives
> Snape the chance to do good, under his supervision and somewhat under
> his protection.  I think that offer was the pivotal moment of Snape's
> life.  If love of Lily is his underlying motivation, Dumbledore's
> harsh offer of a trade is the door Snape needed in order to turn his
> life around.

Montavilla47:
I actually agree with you.  It probably was the best way for 
Dumbledore to handle Snape.  And it's not like we didn't 
hear about Dumbledore treating his associates sternly 
before.  We were told that Dumbledore's wrath was 
terrible to behold when Mundungus let him down.  I see
the reason for it.  But it did bug me when I read it.

As I ponder the story, it does make sense and I'm less
bothered by it.

> > Montavilla47:
> > But mostly, it's that line, "Sometimes I think we sort
> > too early..."  Which says to me that Dumbledore 
> > valued Snape to the extent that Snape emulated the
> > qualities of Gryffindor, rather than for his value as
> > a Slytherin.

> 
> Prep0strus:
> 
> And here we have another of the underlying issues that divides people,
> that causes grumpiness, that itches like the Snape issue itself.  I
> completely agree with your statement in that he's valuing Griffindor
> not Slytherin.  And it bugs the heck out of me that I have to accept
> this world that JKR has created, but... I am in the camp that does not
> see anything to value in Slytherin.  There are characters that manage
> to ever so slightly rise above the sludge that is Slytherin - but
> never by focusing on their Slytherin characteristics.  It's hard
> enough even to find Slytherin characteristics that are able to be
> interpreted as worthwhile.  Pure of blood?  Pointless, and often not
> true.  Clever? Ok, but why not Ravenclaw?  Ambition - surely portrayed
> negatively when not accompanied by wokring towards a noble goal, the
> forte of Griffindors.  Self-serving? Absolutely wonderful.
> 
> 
> I am angry JKR didn't give me a good Slytherin.  I am angry she didn't
> give me worthwhile Slytherin qualities.  I am angry her world didn't
> grow to encompass the idea that all houses ARE equal, and perhaps the
> house WAS tainted by Riddle, and could rise to true equality.  But
> Salazar himself tainted the house, and the school.  Every Slytherin is
> unlikeable in some way, and need to embrace their other qualities to
> not be completely worthless - especially Griffindor, which continues
> to still be 'better' than Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw.

Montavilla47:
If that angers you as well as me, then I don't mind at all that you
dislike Snape.  Because this is the part of the book that really 
bugs me. 

I don't mind that Slytherin isn't fully integrated at the end of the
the book.  I get that it will take time and, even if everyone 
works really hard at it, it would be several generations before
everyone feels comfortable.

But there *are* good qualities in Slytherin.  Ambition is not 
inherently bad.  Nor is talent.  Nor is cunning, even if its
more animalistic a word than "intelligence" or "pragmatism."

But the message isn't that Slytherin qualities have value, 
but that any particular Slytherin has value only to the 
extent that he or she is un-Slytherin-like.

And the best  they hope for in terms of acceptance is 
a wary nod from a distance.