A Snape Timetable (Was: Dumbledore Disgusted)

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 175989

> Carol:
> On a side note related to this thread, I don't think that LV (who
> tells several lies in the last few chapters of DH) ever said 
anything
> to Snape about Lily *after* her death. I think that young Snape,
> sensing her danger, asked to be rewarded for revealing the Porphecy 
by
> having LV spare Lily, making it appear that he merely desired the
> attractive "Mudblood," and LV said something like, "Very well,
> Severus. You have served me well, and I will reward you if I can.
> However, should she resist me and her death become necessary, surely
> you can find a more suitable pure-blood woman who is equally 
attractive."

zgirnius:
I can see Voldemort saying something like that as the reason Snape 
was still desperate when he went to Dumbledore, but I dont see 
Voldemort's motive in lying when he says to Harry, "when she had 
gone, he agreed there were other women". That Voldmeort considered 
Lily's death a possible sticking point for Snape also explains why 
Voldemort would assume Snape had left him forever (GoF). I think the 
matter must at least have been touched on.

> Carol:
> Dumbledore's "you disgust me" seems out of character considering how
> polite he is to the DEs on the tower, who are there to make sure 
that
> he's murdered. No doubt they, and especially the wannabe DE 
Greyback,
> disgust him a great deal more than a DE who has gone behind Voldie's
> back to beg him to spare a woman's life. I'm not sure, but I think 
he
> suspects that young Snape's emotional vulnerability will make him 
see
> himself as he is and realize that indifference to the lives of a 
child
> and its father is less than admirable. 

zgirnius:
Doubtless, though I also believe posters who think Dumbledore sees 
himself in Snape are onto something as well. Snape's situation has 
some parallels to Dumbledore's. Both associated themselves to 
charismatic, bloodist, Dark Wizards fresh out of Hogwarts, and for 
what seem to be similar reasons. Dumbledore wanted an intellectual 
equal, which Grindelwald satisfied; Snape had an interest, at least 
in part intellectual, in the Dark Arts and a desire to fit in 
somewhere, which Voldemort satisfied.

> Carol:
> And that Snape responds with
> "Hide them all, then. Keep her--them--safe. Please" shows that DD's
> tough-love approach has had some effect, as does Snape's promise to 
do
> "anything."

zgirnius:
I agree about the first part. Dumbledore's harsh judgment did get 
Snape to see that his indifference was a shameful thing. 

That he would do anything to keep Lily safe, I think Snape had 
already demonstrated by showing up in the first place. What did he 
expect to be the result of his coming to Dumbledore? The first words 
out of his mouth were 'don't kill me', which I think is indicative of 
the outcome he expected for himself - a lousy outcome, but he did not 
care if Lily was protected. He hesitated after he was asked what he 
would do in exchange for Lily's safety. I don't think he spent the 
time considering a protest, or trying to come up with the smallest 
bargaining chip that Dumbledore might find acceptable. My 
understanding of his reaction was that he was simply shocked to be 
asked, rather than having it dictated to him.

> Dumbledore.
> So he manipulates Snape, who, in turn, is motivated by the
> hope of saving Lily's life. 

zgirnius:
It seems to me Dumbledore would have been in a position to blackmail 
Snape after this meeting, or turn him over to the Ministry (with 
Crouch, Sr. in charge of Law Enforcement). He doesn't use this 
threat, that we see. Despite the harshness of his manner, that he 
gives Snape a free choice is to me very much a gesture of granting a 
second chance.

> Carol:
>It's harsh; it's
> psychological manipulation; it's using Severus for "the greater 
good."
> But it's also effective, and more appropriate than sympathizing with
> him over Lily's death (James, after all, is dead, too). And Harry's
> continued danger is the main point that Snape needs to understand.

zgirnius:
It also gives Snape a purpose to go on living for. Something that in 
that moment, I thing was good and necessary *for Snape*. I love how 
the deciding argument, the one that gets Snape to agree, is the 
knowledge that there is actually a danger from which Harry is to be 
protected. Something to *do*.

> Carol:
> I don't like DD in these scenes. My sympathy is almost entirely with
> the emotionally battered young Snape. 

zgirnius:
Different strokes. I loved them both in these scenes. I liked him 
less in the GoF scene and the "pig" scene (though upon reread, that 
second is OK too...he truly did think his plan was Harry's best 
chance to survive).

> Carol:
> Snape attempts to save him from the ring curse even
> before the doe Patronus gives him the "ironclad reason" for trusting
> Snape. He defends Snape to McGonagall et al. and to Harry before the
> Patronus incident. 

zgirnius:
If the doe is Dumbledore's 'ironclad reason' then he must have known 
about her long before the 'pig to slaughter' scene (which occurs in 
late March of HBP's year, the same night as the Argument in the 
Forest). McGonagall says to Harry:

> HBP, "The Phoenix Lament":
"He always hinted that he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape"

zgirnius:
"Always" is a bit different from "since March of this year". I 
conclude that either Dumbledore knew about the doe for a long time 
(perhaps he and Snape communicated by Patronus, even while Snape hid 
his from other Order members not familiar with his motives), or 
Dumbledore considered Snape's love for Lily combined with his brave 
and loyal service in the final months of the first war, 'ironclad' 
reasons.