Voldemort/Re: Ending

[Renee]

No: HPFGUIDX 176201

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bartl at ...> wrote:
>
> From: Renee <rvink7 at ...>
> Renee:
> >Does the term "soul" belong in a medical context? If not (and I don't
> >think it does), this is just another example of mixing up categories,
> >of working on two different levels. 

> Bart:
> I'm not sure the term "psychology" belongs in a medical context (not
in the Scientologist sense, but in the sense that it is a HIGHLY
inexact science). But I AM inferring, from the books, how JKR defines
a "soul". I don't want to get into heavy theology now, but a
characteristic of psychopathy and sociopathy is a lack of either
empathy or conscience, which, at least to me, seems pretty clearly
attached to what JKR calls the soul.

Renee:
We're not talking psychology here, but psychiatry, which does belong
in a mecial context (and I don't quite understand what the Scientology
movement has to do with it). And "Soul" is a concept that does not
belong in this context. 

 
> Renee:
> >The problem, of course, is the "no longer", as JKR fails to make clear
> >that he ever had a choice. Also, the "no longer able to make choices"
> >goes against JKR's statement in the interview that the drop of blood
> >did give him a choice. 

Bart:
> 
> Once again, we're working with inexact terminology. What is meant by
a "choice" in this context? Morty doesn't show any more sign that he's
mentally affected by the blood than Harry shows that he is mentally
affected by the Mortysoul. Perhaps what the blood does is give Morty
the OPPORTUNITY; in other words, before, he couldn't even make an
intellectual decision to exhibit remorse, and now, he can. But, on an
emotional level, there is no more indication that Morty would even
consider it as there is that Harry would drop it all and become a
death eater. 

Renee:
Adding a drop of blood doesn't affect the intellectual decision of a
psychopath; from a medical point of view, blood is morally neutral. My
 problem is, that JKR switches from psychological realism - depicting
Voldemort realistically as a psychopath - to (perhaps religious)
symbolism by using the blood in order to give Voldemort a chance,
choice or opportunity (what you call it is of no importance to my
argument).

Apparently I failed to make myself clear: I'm not challenging the
moral workings of JKR's story, but her technique. 


<snipping the next bit because it has no bearing on my technical
criticism>

> Renee:
> >I'd like to see some canon evidence for what you're saying here. You
> >make a supposition about Tom having a real choice, but I simply don't
> >see it in the text, and not even JKR seems to think it's there.  
> 
> Bart:
> Morty offered Lily a chance to live. Yes, it was to his long-term
advantage to do so; it would help cement the loyalty of a valuable
lieutenant. But that's the point: he IS capable of choosing good, if
he is intellectually convinced it's to his long-term advantage. And
that's just what Harry tried to do; convince him that it was to his
long-term advantage to repent.

Renee:
What evidence did Voldemort have that Harry was speaking the truth?

Anyway, some of the symptoms of psychopathy are poor judgement and
lack of risk-assessment. That's probably why Voldemort killed Lily
instead of merely stunning her, which would have brought him both
Harry's death *and* the loyalty of a valuable lieutenant. So no, he
wasn't capable of choosing good on an intellectual level at all. 

Renee