[HPforGrownups] Voldemort/Re: Ending

[Bart Lidofsky]

No: HPFGUIDX 176196

From: Renee <rvink7 at hotmail.com>
Renee:
>Does the term "soul" belong in a medical context? If not (and I don't
>think it does), this is just another example of mixing up categories,
>of working on two different levels. And it doesn't solve the problem
>of choice, or the lack thereof in Tom Riddle's case. 

Bart:
I'm not sure the term "psychology" belongs in a medical context (not in the Scientologist sense, but in the sense that it is a HIGHLY inexact science). But I AM inferring, from the books, how JKR defines a "soul". I don't want to get into heavy theology now, but a characteristic of psychopathy and sociopathy is a lack of either empathy or conscience, which, at least to me, seems pretty clearly attached to what JKR calls the soul.

Renee:
>The problem, of course, is the "no longer", as JKR fails to make clear
>that he ever had a choice. Also, the "no longer able to make choices"
>goes against JKR's statement in the interview that the drop of blood
>did give him a choice. 

Once again, we're working with inexact terminology. What is meant by a "choice" in this context? Morty doesn't show any more sign that he's mentally affected by the blood than Harry shows that he is mentally affected by the Mortysoul. Perhaps what the blood does is give Morty the OPPORTUNITY; in other words, before, he couldn't even make an intellectual decision to exhibit remorse, and now, he can. But, on an emotional level, there is no more indication that Morty would even consider it as there is that Harry would drop it all and become a death eater. 

Bart: 
>> The point is not that Morty had any chance at changing. It's that
>Harry GAVE him the chance that makes a difference. It's a very
>Christian message, that even the very worst people have a chance to
>repent and receive forgiveness for their sins, even if it rarely
>happens. If even Morty has the chance, then the reader, who can
>generally be considered to be a better person than Morty, has a
>chance, too.

Renee:
>But the whole point is that Voldemort has no chance. You just said he
>was unable to make choices at that point, so aren't you contradicting
>yourself here? Offering a chance to someone who, from a pathological
>point of view, is unable to take it turns the Christian message of
>forgiveness into an empty gesture. And on a literal level, I don't buy
>JKR's explanation that he had a chance because he carried Harry's
>blood inside him - though I do on a symbolical level.  

I've mentioned this before, here, but in the book, THE WONDERFUL WIZARD OF OZ (NOT to be confused with the movie), it is demonstrated early on that each of Dorothy's companions already possesses what they thought they didn't have. Notably, the Tin Woodsman mentions that, because he has no heart, he has to walk very carefully, because he might heartlessly step on some small creature and kill it. In other words, he doesn't just have compassion on an emotional level; he manages to achieve it on an intellectual level, deciding logically that compassion is something that is beneficial to have. Morty, due to his illness, had no conscience. However, what the blood did was give him the possibility, if he could decide that restoring his soul was to his advantage, he could do so, and possibly even be cured. Unfortunately one of the symptoms of psychopathy (and why psychopaths are rarely successful) is that going that deep intellectually is pretty much impossible. 

Renee:
>I'd like to see some canon evidence for what you're saying here. You
>make a supposition about Tom having a real choice, but I simply don't
>see it in the text, and not even JKR seems to think it's there.  

Bart:
Morty offered Lily a chance to live. Yes, it was to his long-term advantage to do so; it would help cement the loyalty of a valuable lieutenant. But that's the point: he IS capable of choosing good, if he is intellectually convinced it's to his long-term advantage. And that's just what Harry tried to do; convince him that it was to his long-term advantage to repent.

Bart