help with JKR quote was Re: Lily and Tuney and Sev, Oh My

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 176508

muscatel1988 wrote:
 
> Oh dear.  I've just been to the Lexicon (http://www.hp-
> lexicon.org/magic/spells/spells_c.html).
> 
> The following spells are known as curses. 
> 
> Babbling Curse 
> Blasting Curse *
> Body-Bind Curse *
> Cruciatus Curse  *
> Curse of the Bogies 
> Entrail-Expelling Curse 
> Fiendfyre 
> Flagrante Curse 
> Gemino Curse 
> Impediment Curse *
> Imperius Curse *
> Jelly-Fingers curse 
> Killing Curse 
> Leg-Locker Curse 
> Reductor Curse *
> Sponge-Knees Curse 
> Thief's Curse 
> Unforgivable Curses (*)
> 
> Those I've marked with * are used by White Hats, almost always with
success (Harry's Reductor in GoF doesn't work).  If JKR is to be 
taken at her word, then we've seen Dark Magic being liberally used
right through the series.  If she's not, then her answer makes little
 sense (and it's not as if she gave it in an absent-minded moment in
an interview.  
> 
> I wish I was able to see a coherent moral universe in her work.  I
can't, any more.
> 
> Mus.
>
Carol responds:

Yes, I've made a similar list in other posts and developed the point
regarding her inconsistency at length in message 160791, which I'll
quote in part here:

"The Lexicon lists the following hexes: Bat-Bogey Hex, canary
transfiguration hex, Hurling Hex, knee-reversing hex, Stinging Hex,
Twitchy Ears Hex, and toenail-growing hex, some of which I don't
recall encountering in canon and most of which sound no more dangerous
than the so-called jinxes (some of which I don't recall from canon,
either): Anti-Disapparation Jinx, Backfiring Jinx, finger-removing
jinx, Impediment Jinx, Jelly-Brain Jinx, Jelly-Legs Jinx, snitch jinx,
Stretching jinx, and Trip Jinx. The finger-removing jinx sounds a
bit more than irritating, and amusing only if you're Bellatrix
Lestrange. The distinction between jinxes and hexes is unclear from
these examples. Is Hermione's Snitch Jinx really less Dark than
twitchy ears or long toenails, both of which appear to be temporary
(or easily reversed by Madam Pomfrey)? IMO, the only logical reason to
call it a jinx rather than a hex is that Hermione jinxed the parchment
rather than the person, but that doesn't appear to be JKR's line of
thinking.

"As for spells labeled as curses, is the Conjunctivitis Curse (which
Viktor Krum used on his dragon and Sirius Black intended to advise
Harry to use on his) really that much Darker than the Bat-Bogey Hex or
the Confundus Charm (not to mention our much-hated Memory Charm)? What
about the Babbling Curse, the Impediment Curse (Impedimenta?), the
Leg-Locker Curse, and the Jelly-Fingers Curse (listed in the Lexicon)?
Those seem to fit JKR's definition of *jinxes* (irritating but
amusing--to the spectator, anyway), yet they're labeled curses. Now
granted, the Entrail-Expelling Curse really does sound Dark (and
gruesome), and Sectumsempra can be deadly and is likely to be
classified as a curse, along with the unquestionably Dark
Unforgiveables. But the Sponge-Knees Curse (again from the Lexicon)?
How is that Darker than Jelly Legs?

"It seems to me that most if not all of these spells, even the
Confundus Charm, are really curses, ranging from minor (and amusing,
if you're JKR) to fatal. I suppose that they're also Charms since they
change the properties rather than the essence of the victim, usually
temporarily (except for the AK and the innocent-sounding Memory
Charm). So does Hogwarts teach (or allow its students to teach each
other) minor Dark Magic? Just what are the Dark Arts that Durmstrang
teaches, then? (How to kill your friends and turn them into Inferi?)

"If JKR's explanation were valid, the only actual curses listed in
this post would be the Unforgiveables, the Entrail-Expelling Curse,
Sectumsempra, and possibly the euphemistically titled Memory Charm.
The Conjunctivitis Curse (so-called because it alliterates, IMO) would
be a hex and the Twitchy Ears Hex a jinx.

"Nope. She simply hasn't thought it out. Maybe the current definition
was a work in progress when she was writing OoP, which would explain
why the students start jinxing rather than hexing each other (most of
the time), but as I see it, she chose the names chiefly for their
sound, particularly in the case of those few that alliterate
(Conjuntivitis Curse, Hurling Hex, Jelly-Legs Jinx).

"If the curse that's on the DADA position is a jinx by JKR's
definition, I'll eat slugs."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/160791

To return to Mus's list from the Lexicon, it's clear that most of the
so-called curses are not Dark (Fiendfyre and the Unforgiveables
excepted). Interestingly, Sectumsempra, surely a curse since it's a
Dark spell that can kill and causes permanent harm (unless Snape is
there to chant the elaborate countercurse) is not listed.

It bothers me that JKR uses "hex" for most minor curses until OoP,
when she suddenly and temporarily switches to "jinx" for most of the
spells that the students use against each other in the DA meetings and
in unfriendly encounters between Gryffindors and Slytherins. The curse
on the DADA position, which has led to everything from a simple firing
to death (and soul-sucking, if you count Barty Jr. as a DADA teacher)
has been labeled as a jinx since it was first mentioned, though I very
much doubt that its victims found it merely annoying.

As I stated before, she seems to use "curse" very loosely for
everything from the hexes and jinxes that the kids throw at each other
in the corridors to purely defensive spells like Impedimenta to
anti-acne charms like the one that Eloise Midgen tried to use on herself.

I would say that JKR is right (according to the evidence of her own
text) in stating that "spell" is a generic term for any magic
requiring a wand and that a "charm" merely changes the properties of
an object rather than altering its nature or chemical structure (so we
have Summoning and Banishing and Hover *Charms* but Vanishing and
Conjuring *Spells*, which are forms of Transfiguration). 

The spells used for DADA (or duelling in the corridors) are all some
sort of curse, usually a hex or jinx (either of which may involve
either a charm or transfiguration, but let's not muddy the waters any
further). The defensive spells, such as Expelliarmus, Impedimenta, and
Protego, appear to be what Hermione calls "counterjinxes" in OoP, but
the term isn't used anywhere else, IIRC. The term "countercurse,"
which does appear rather frequently, seems to apply both to specific
counterspells such as Liberacorpus (the countercurse for Levicorpus)
and the unnamed and elaborate countercurse for Sectumsempra and to the
generalized counterspell "Finite Incantatem," which seems to work for
most jinxes and hexes not invented by Severus Snape. 

The term "countercurse" is not, however, used for defensive spells
like those I listed: Expelliarmus, Impedimenta, and Protego. Looking
just at these three basic DADA spells (which, except for SWM, are
primarily used in self-defense), Impedimenta is referred to either as
the Impediment *Curse* or the Impediment *Jinx*; Expelliarmus is
merely the Disarming *Spell* (or "disarm"); Protego is the Shield
*Charm.* Not an iota of consistency in naming those defensive spells,
yet all are used in similar situations. Other primarily defensive
spells include Expecto Patronum, a charm effective only against
Dementors; Stupefy, the Stunning Spell or Stupefying Charm; and
Riddikulus, the Boggart-Banishing Spell, which appears to be a charm.
However, the Stinging Hex also appears to be used defensively (Harry
accidentally casts one against Snape in the Occlumency lessons), as
does Reducto, the Reductor Curse, which blasts solid objects out of
the way.

Of these spells, the purely defensive ones (Expelliarmus, Protego, and
Expecto Patronum) appear to be the least dark, with the jinx/curse
Impedimenta less dark than many spells casually used in the corridors
by kids from rival houses. How the toenail hex invented by the HBP is
darker than Stupefy or the Jelly-Legs Jinx is unclear to me.

I think that JKR was not paying attention to the type of curse or
degree of darkness at all in naming her spells and curses (though she
did pay attention, in some cases, to whether the spell was a charm or
a form of transfiguration). She was primarily interested in the sound
of the name, and in alliteration where applicable.

I would make more sense *to me* if jinxes were placed on objects
(brooms, pieces of parchment) or intangible entities (the DADA
position) and hexes on people, with "curses" reserved for the
Unforgiveables, Sectumsempra, and anything potentially deadly,
disabling, or permanent. But neither logic nor consistency is
discoverable in JKR's naming system, and her website explanation is
only partially applicable to her actual practice within the books.

Carol, wondering whether JKR gave Hermione an excellent memory as a
form of wishful thinking