In Defense of Scrimgeour - Authority

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 179578

> bboyminn:
> 
> Well several people have made some valid points, including,
> much to my surprise, Mike, so while good small points are
> being made, I think more important larger points are being
> ignored.

Mike:
Yeah, who'd a thunk it?! Larger points, huh? I'll try to pay 
attention.


> bboyminn:
> For one, Scrimgeuor was NOT asking Harry to join him in
> fighting Voldemort. He was asking Harry to help him create
> the perception that the Ministry was doing a good job,
> which they absolutely were not.

Mike:
But he has to start somewhere. Scrimmy is patronizing Harry, sure. 
But thanks to DD, he knows nothing of Harry's impending mission. 
Has no idea of how to help Harry much less that Harry is being 
trained for something by DD. Do you know that all Scrimmy wanted 
Harry for was as a mascot? It may be his initial approach, yet given 
his lack of information, he has nothing else to offer Harry other 
than access to the Aurors, which he did.

I wrote a different post about Scrimgeour in over his head as a 
politician, being a soldier/general first and foremost. DD admits
Scrimgeour is a man of action and won't take LV's threat lightly.
But it's obvious to me that he doesn't really know or like to play
this game of politics. He quickly gets frustrated with the political 
approach when it doesn't yield the results he's looking for. 

Yes, the Ministry is full of corrupt or inept politicians. OTOH,
Scrimgeour came from the Auror office, isn't it possible that he 
isn't one of the corrupt ones? Yet from Scrimgeour's remark about
DD closing off access to Harry, it doesn't appear he was given a 
chance. He did die rather than reveal Harry's whereabouts, maybe he
wasn't all DD cracked him down to be.



> bboyminn:
>  -<snip>-
> Scrimgeour wasn't asking Harry to help in the substantial
> efforts of the Ministy, he was asking Harry to help him 
> create the false preception that the Ministry was doing 
> good, when if fact, they were making the most insubstantial
> and ineffective effort.

Mike:
Scrimgeour said he wanted Harry to boost morale. Now you can decide 
for yourself whether that was a cynical statement. Possibly his real 
motivation was what Harry said, and which Scrimgeour allowed was 
partially true, that he only wanted Harry to appear to be approving 
of the Ministry's methods. Personally, I think it was a little of 
both. And I think Harry could have used the Ministry's resources (I 
assume they have some) to his advantage, especially if every one 
there is as accomodating towards him as Scrimgeour is.

Still, the bigger point is that Scrimgeour wasn't given a chance. I 
can understand Harry's reluctance, especially after he learns that 
Umbridge is still there. But why doesn't DD try to enlist more 
allies rather than making more enemies?

-<snip the 'Bartimaeus Trilogies' analogies, don't know the books>-


> bboyminn:
> 
> Notice the the Ministry is never anywhere to be found in
> any of the final battles, or if they do arrive, it is far
> too late. Yet Harry IS there, because he is actually 
> searching for the answers and trying to find the culprit.

Mike:
Which battles? The ones at Hogwarts in the first three books and in
HBP? Would you expect the Ministry to be on the scene at Hogwarts?
I wouldn't. 

Ironically, the one time there is Minisrty presence at Hogwarts, the 
battle takes place at the Ministry itself. And I found it highly 
dubious that there were NO Ministry employees to be found anywhere 
during what must have been a very long battle ranging from the DoM 
up to the Atrium. Not realistic, imo, and I've said so in the past.

How about in the graveyard in GoF? Well, if the Ministry could have 
found LV and neutralized him, there wouldn't have been much of a 
story, would there? I didn't notice Dumbledore or any Order members 
in that graveyard either.

The Ministry was at Hogwarts for the final battle in DH, 
unfortunately, they were fighting on LV's side then.


> bboyminn:
> 
> Also, notice that when the time came, the Ministry tumbled
> like a house made of tissue paper. They were gone and 
> thoroughly corrupted and co-opted in a blink. If they
> were creating substantial efforts rather than perception,
> they might have stood a chance.

Mike:
One of my points was I thought it was unrealistic how easily the 
Ministry fell. Goddlefrood set me straight on that score. Was it a 
function of the level of corruptness that allowed the quick 
takeover? A question I don't have an answer for.


> bboyminn:
> 
> So, the heart of the Harry Potter story is not about defying
> Authority, that's not the lesson at all. It is about knowing
> when to defy authority, and this is a very critical lesson 
> for kids to learn. 

Mike:
Agreed. But us adults are here to debate many things about the HP 
books, one of which is Dumbledore's method of fighting LV. Besides, 
Harry wasn't so much defying authority but, as lizzyben pointed out,  
transferring authority to Dumbledore.


 
> bboyminn:
> 
> While Dumbledore is protecting Harry from clearly corrupt, 
> self-serving, and ineffective Ministry, that does not mean that
> Dumbledore is not keeping the Ministry informed. At Harry's
> hearing, Fudge mentions a tale about 'the reversal of time'
> which implies that Dumbledore gave him an account of what
> happened in Prisoner of Azkaban. There are several other hints
> that the Ministry is aware of events that have happened to
> Harry over the course of the years. So, it is not like he
> is keeping them totally in the dark.

Mike:
I just reread the hearing chapter in OotP. I found no mention of 
'the reversal of time'. Could you point me to it, please? Also, 
since Harry and Hermione effected the escape of a wanted criminal 
and a beast sentenced by the Ministry for disposal during their 
time turning, don't you suppose an out-to-get-Harry Fudge would now 
be charging Harry with those offenses if he knew about them?


> bboyminn:
> 
> Yes, there are secrets Dumbledore is holding, such as, as 
> Mike pointed out, Dumbledore not telling people about the
> Horcruxes.  -<snip>-
> 
> It is also important to keep the information away from 
> Voldemort so he won't change his pattern.  -<snip>-

Mike:
Yes, Horcruxes are definitely a seperate issue. How about keeping 
that one just within the Order? You know, like telling Snape, so 
when Bella brags "entrusted me with his most precious..." our good 
friend Severus, might actually suspect what she's talking about, 
bright boy that he is. What about that most amazing bit of detective
work it took for Harry to find the diadem? Do you suppose 
McGonnagall, intelligent as she seems, might have found that one far
in advance of when Harry actually did? As a_svirn pointed out, 
imagine the bloodshed saved had the diadem been awaiting Harry upon
his return to Hogwarts.

What about the Dark Marks? Why were they kept from the Ministry? 
Based on Sirius' comment and Fudge's reaction to Snape, both in GoF,
I believe the Ministry was unaware. Making everyone produce their 
left forearm for inspection prior to entry into the Ministry would 
have been a rather easy to employ safety measure, don't ya think? 
Would have kept Lucius out, at least. 

And why, for heavens sake, keep the fact that Lord Voldemort is 
really the half-blood Tom Riddle and that he killed his own father 
and grandparents framing his uncle for the crimes, a secret? Isn't 
it possible that a few pure-blood bigots would be turned off by 
Riddle's half-blood status after all his posturing?


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/179549
zgirnius:
Dumbledore had, at the end of HBP, found the Diary (destroyed by
Harry), the Ring (destroyed by him), Nagini, slated for destruction
last so that Voldemort would not know what it going on, and the
locket which I deduce you are calling "half". That's 3 1/2, leaving 
2 1/2 for the three teenagers.

Mike:
You give DD credit for the diary when it was already de-Horcruxified 
by Harry before DD laid his eyes or hands on it? I don't. Nagini was 
a good guess, but still required destroying. And I was generous with 
the locket, since it still required both finding and destroying. DD 
did much of the legwork on that one, so I'll leave it at half. By my 
revised spreadsheet, that's 2 for DD leaving 4 for the Trio. Not 
counting the piece in Harry, which DD did find, but I'd say the 
destroying of that one was more than half the battle, wouldn't you?


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/179550
Pippin:
... and everyone did know about the Dark Mark tattoo,
otherwise it could hardly have been used to intimidate people.

Mike:
Really, Sirius didn't know about it. And Snape had converted before 
Sirius, an Order member, went to Azkaban. Fudge didn't seem to know 
about them either. People knew about the Dark Mark fireworks, but 
don't seem to know about the tattoo. Or do you figure they knew 
about it, knew it was an easy way to identify a DE, but didn't care 
enough to check that their employees (Rookwood, McNair) had it?


Pippin:
After Godric's Hollow the Dark Mark faded and in any case it
didn't tell who was serving Voldemort willingly and who was under
the Imperius curse, nor did all Voldemort's followers have it.

Mike:
Excuse me, but which Dark Marked DE did you think should have been 
absolved of being a DE and let go free? Only DEs get the mark, I 
would think that alone is enough reason to detain them. There is 
zero indication that LV marks those that are Imperiused or just 
duped into following him. Don't you suppose that Snape, after 
DD "gave testimony" about his return to the good side at great 
peril to his life, could have explained to the Ministry the 
ramifications of getting "marked"?

Mike, wondering if he surprised Steve again, or at least kept him 
amused :-P