In Defense of Scrimgeour - Authority

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 179606

Mike wrote:
> <snip> But he has to start somewhere. Scrimmy is patronizing Harry,
sure. But thanks to DD, he knows nothing of Harry's impending mission.
Has no idea of how to help Harry much less that Harry is being 
trained for something by DD. Do you know that all Scrimmy wanted 
Harry for was as a mascot? It may be his initial approach, yet given
his lack of information, he has nothing else to offer Harry other 
than access to the Aurors, which he did.
<snip>
> Yes, the Ministry is full of corrupt or inept politicians. OTOH,
Scrimgeour came from the Auror office, isn't it possible that he 
isn't one of the corrupt ones? Yet from Scrimgeour's remark about DD
closing off access to Harry, it doesn't appear he was given a  chance.
He did die rather than reveal Harry's whereabouts, maybe he wasn't all
DD cracked him down to be.

Carol responds:

I'm not sure, but I think we have an example here of the kind of
suspicion and distrust that Voldemort revels in. I agree that
Scrimgeour was a good guy and that DD should have trusted him, but
possibly the fact that Scrimgeour was pursuing sirius Black in OoP,
suspecting Tonks and Shacklebolt of knowing his whereabouts, made DD
leery of trusting him, or maybe he just didn't trust the Ministry in
general. Meanwhile, Scrimgeour seems not to have trusted DD (he wants
to know where DD has been going throughout HBP) and he seems not to
trust Harry, either, simply because he's a young and unqualified
wizard. Harry doesn't trust Scrimgeour because of the Stan Shunpike
arrest, but he keeps holding up his fist, as if he expects Scrimgeour
to read it and understand immediately how the words "I must not tell
lies" got there. Scrimgeour wasn't the Minister for Magic in OoP, and
not even Fudge knows the methods Umbridge uses on uncooperative
students ("What Cornelius knows won't hurt him.") How can Scrimgeour
possibly know that those scars got onto Harry's hand via Umbridge's
blood-letting quill? I think she's still at the Ministry because
neither Scrimgeour nor Fudge knows about the quill or that Umbridge
sent the Dementors after Harry. But does Harry explain that? No. He
just expects Scrimgeour to read his mind. DD, of course, far from
trusting too easily, as Harry thought in HBP, trusts hardly anybody.
And Harry seems to be learning from his mentor to be secretive and
suspicious, not to mention that in every book, he's suppressing
information that he ought to tell someone that he trusts, whether it's
his friends or McGonagall or Lupin or DD. And in this case, it would
help a lot if he'd shared that particular information with a person he
*doesn't* trust. But it's almost like his relationship with Snape all
over again. He learns, too late, that Scrimgeour died withholding
information about him. And (in contrast to Snape), he barely gives him
a passing thought. Imagine what might have happened had Harry in HBP
told Scrimgeour about the cave and the locket Horcrux (not the
Horcruxes in general, only the one) and about Umbridge's crimes. He
could have put two and two together and deduced that the locket
Umbridge was openly wearing was the Slytherin Horcrux and destroyed it
without any harm or danger to HRH. He might even have prevented the
takeover of the Ministry instead of wasting a whole month pondering
the significance of DD's gifts to Harry and his friends. Why didn't
JKR write it that way? Because it would have spoiled the story,
especially the "Doe Patronus" chapter. <snip>

Mike:
> 
> Still, the bigger point is that Scrimgeour wasn't given a chance. I
can understand Harry's reluctance, especially after he learns that 
Umbridge is still there. But why doesn't DD try to enlist more allies
rather than making more enemies?

Carol:
Because Albus learned secrecy at his mother's knee and was betrayed at
an early age by a boy he cared too much about? Because Albus was a
genius who didn't think that anyone's intellect could match his own?
Because he thought that Scrimgeour had succumbed to the lure of power,
which was his own personal temptation? Because the more people you
tell a secret to, the more likely it is that the information will
reach someone that you want to keep the secret from? (I can see, BTW,
why DD would trust Hagrid with his life but not with his secrets. I
can also see why he wouldn't tell Mundungus about the Horcruxes. And
his experience with Peter Pettigrew would teach him that the most
innocuous-seeming person may be a secret enemy.) IMO, it's perfectly
in character for DD not to trust Scrimgeour or anyone at the Ministry
with information that he won't even share with his own Order members.
Personally, I think that the living DD should have told Snape about
the Horcruxes and about the Elder Wand; Portrait!DD should have told
McGonagall about Snape. Harry should have told Scrimgeour about
Umbridge and, based on his reaction, perhaps given him more
information. But Harry could hardly anticipate that the Ministry would
fall from within, in part through Umbridge's collaboration with the
DES (not a canon fact; just my own reading), and he's simply following
his mentor's example. 

It's interesting that one of the lessons Harry partially learns in DH
is to trust others, to let the DA in on *part* of his secret, to
delegate authority ("Kill the snake") instead of trying to do
everything himself. I think we see that Harry is in no danger of
becoming another Dumbledore (secretive and tempted by power) or
another Snape (obsessed by vengeance) though he's in danger of
becoming both at different times in the books. (Giving up the wand
shows that he's resisted the lure of power; the self-sacrifice shows
that he's forsaken revenge in favor of love).

Mike:
<snip>
> Ironically, the one time there is Minisrty presence at Hogwarts, the 
> battle takes place at the Ministry itself. And I found it highly 
> dubious that there were NO Ministry employees to be found anywhere 
> during what must have been a very long battle ranging from the DoM 
> up to the Atrium. Not realistic, imo, and I've said so in the past.
> 
> How about in the graveyard in GoF? Well, if the Ministry could have 
> found LV and neutralized him, there wouldn't have been much of a 
> story, would there? I didn't notice Dumbledore or any Order members 
> in that graveyard either. <snip>

Carol:

Re the absence of Ministry employees in the DoM battle, the one
security guard (Eric Somebody) is absent from his desk. Evidently, he
doesn't work nights or, more likely, the DEs have killed or otherwise
dealt with him or his night-time counterpart. But you'd think they'd
have security guards patroling every floor or some sort of intruder
alarm. Even if you can't Apparate directly into the Ministry and the
fireplaces are connected directly to the homes of top Ministry
employees, it's all too easy to get in using the visitor's entrance.
All Lucius Malfoy has to do is tell the other DEs the "magic"
telephone number, and they can invade on false pretenses any time.

As for the graveyard, I think only the DEs knew how to get there (the
Dark Mark must have some sort of built-in radar to tell them where LV
is). DD wouldn't know and Snape was staying away. (They couldn't
Apparate from the Hogwarts grounds, anyway.) The Ministry may have
detected some Unforgiveable Curses in a Muggle graveyard, but maybe
the spells only show up if there's a Muggle present or magic is
performed in a place where an underage witch or wizard is known to
live. I'm not sure that their sensors automatically pick up
Unforgiveable Curses. If they did, a lot more DEs would be in prison
(and Barty Jr.'s AK of his father would also have been detected).


> Mike:
> Yes, Horcruxes are definitely a seperate issue. How about keeping 
> that one just within the Order? You know, like telling Snape, so 
> when Bella brags "entrusted me with his most precious..." our good 
> friend Severus, might actually suspect what she's talking about, 
> bright boy that he is. What about that most amazing bit of detective
> work it took for Harry to find the diadem? Do you suppose 
> McGonnagall, intelligent as she seems, might have found that one far
> in advance of when Harry actually did? As a_svirn pointed out, 
> imagine the bloodshed saved had the diadem been awaiting Harry upon
> his return to Hogwarts.

Carol:
Agreed about Snape, but I'm not sure that Helena Ravenclaw would have
opened up to McGonagall as she did to Harry. After all, she seems to
have pretended to know nothing about the tiara when others questioned
her, and surely those others included DD and Flitwick. And McGonagall
is not exactly the type to invite confidences, especially the
revelation of past misdeeds or indiscretions.
> 
Mike:
> What about the Dark Marks? Why were they kept from the Ministry? 
> Based on Sirius' comment and Fudge's reaction to Snape, both in GoF,
> I believe the Ministry was unaware. Making everyone produce their 
> left forearm for inspection prior to entry into the Ministry would 
> have been a rather easy to employ safety measure, don't ya think? 
> Would have kept Lucius out, at least. 

Carol:
I agree that Fudge doesn't seem to have known about the Dark Marks
since Snape has to explain their purpose. And it wouldn't be just
Lucius but Rookwood and Macnair who were prevented from entering the
Ministry (both were Ministry employees). Dark Marks would also have
made it easier to determine who was a real DE and who was acting under
the Imperius Curse, both in the first war and the second. Does Stan
Shunpike have a Dark Mark? I doubt it.)

BTW, Eric What's his name does use a secrecy sensor on Harry in OoP
before Harry's trial. Wouldn't it pick up the Dark Mark? And shouldn't
he have a Sneakoscope as well?

Mike:
> 
> And why, for heavens sake, keep the fact that Lord Voldemort is 
> really the half-blood Tom Riddle and that he killed his own father 
> and grandparents framing his uncle for the crimes, a secret? Isn't 
> it possible that a few pure-blood bigots would be turned off by 
> Riddle's half-blood status after all his posturing? <snip>

Carol:
I'm not so sure about the pure-blood bigots being deterred from
joining (though that knowledge might have kept Regulus out). I think
Lucius Malfoy knew it (he was at the graveyard, after all, and he had
charge of a certain diary embossed with the name Tom Marvolo Riddle
and bought at a Muggle shop. He must have thought that either
Voldemort's agenda or his descent from Slytherin (not to mention his
formidable appearance and powers) overrode the small defect of being a
Half-Blood. (Had he been a Muggle-born, of course, it would have been
another matter, but I can't see a Muggle-born with an anti-Muggle
agenda). Bellatrix didn't know, but she wasn't in the graveyard and
she was very much in denial about any flaw in her precious master. She
even overlooked his missing nose.

As for keeping Tom Riddle's crimes a secret, DD didn't. He obtained
those memories from Morphin and Hokey and tried to persuade the
Ministry of their innocence. Unfortunately, both of them died soon
afterwards (unlike Lizzyben, I don't believe that DD's attempts to
obtain the true memories had anything to do with it--after all, it
didn't hurt Slughorn to trick him into giving Harry the correct
memory), and by the time that DD obtained the memory from Hokey,
handsome Tom Riddle had presumably been transformed into the
blurred-featured Voldemort of the DADA interview and had fled the
country to consort with Dark wizards. (Did Grindelwald meet him and
dismiss him as an ignorant interloper, I wonder? He seems to know
quite well who he is and to hold him in contempt for his ignorance
right before LV murders him.)

Carol, who doesn't consider the Dark Mark a tattoo because it doesn't
involve ink (I think it's burned into the skin with the Morsmordre spell)