Scrimgeour/WerewolfBites/Legilimency/DDsecrecy/DarkMagic/Umbridge/Prefect/etc

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 179736

> Lizzyben wrote in
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/179574>:
> 
> << And hmmm, where else have we heard of a powerful wizard using
> Legimancy to "extract" hidden memories? Voldemort did exactly that
> to Bertha Jorkins. >>
> 
> I don't recall anything in canon that SAYS that Voldemort used
> Legilimency on Bertha Jorkins. 
> 
> He said "with a little persuasion" and  (as you quote) "the means I
> used to break the Memory Charm upon her were powerful, and when I 
had
> extracted all useful information from her, her mind and body were 
both
> damaged beyond repair." Many listies thought this meant that he 
used
> torture and that sufficient pain will break a Memory Charm. I 
always
> thought he used a specialized Memory Charm Breaker with major side
> effects, rather than torture. It could be, as you say, that he used
> Legilimency and use of Legilimency to break a Memory Charm has 
those
> side effects.

lizzyben:

LV says "with a little persuasion," DD says he "coaxed it out of 
him", LV & DD both say that they used magic to "extract" a modified 
memory, & both say that it was difficult process. 

Crouch Jr. is the only independent eyewitness to the breaking of a 
Memory Charm, and he calls it torture. ("He tortured her until he 
broke through the Memory Charm my father had placed on her." HP 
Lexicon concludes that memory charms can be broken, just not through 
humane means.) I think they're all just different names for the same 
process - it just depends how euphemistic you want to be. 

It's also interesting that DD never shows Harry the memory of his 
own interrogation of Hokey and Morfin, while he does show Harry his 
own memories of questioning Burke & Riddle. Why? I think it's 
because DD's actual interrogation method w/Hokey & Morfin was 
something that he wouldn't want Harry (or anyone else) to see. He 
extracted these memories through less than human means. He tortured 
them, just as LV had tortured Bertha Jorkins. It's just that DD is 
more inclined to use euphemisms, so we hear about how he 
used "skilled Legimency", & extracted the memories with "extreme 
difficulty," etc. This could just be speculation, but the proof is 
in the fact that both prisoners died right after DD's questioning. 

And also, I think the chapter has a double meaning. In HP, many 
chapters have a double meaning that only becomes apparant on the re-
read. (i.e. "The half-blood prince" chapter contains the HBP diary & 
Harry's class with Snape). This chapter is called "A Sluggish 
Memory," yet Slughorn's memory is only mentioned at the end. The 
chapter itself is all about Morfin's lost memory of Riddle's visit - 
the memory that Voldemort erased, and Dumbledore later extracted. 
Morfin himself no longer has any memory of that meeting, yet DD & 
Harry watch his extracted memory in the Penseive. How did DD get an 
erased memory? He had to break through the memory charm/oblivation 
that LV had placed on Morfin. Morfin's memory is the real "sluggish 
memory," and it took quite a bit of prying for DD to obtain it. 

Catlady:
> It could be that LV and DD used the same method, whatever it was, 
of
> breaking Memory Charms at the cost of the patient's death, as you
> said. It also could be that LV and DD used different methods to 
break
> through Memory Charms, LV using the quickest one despite the side
> effects, and DD using a slower but less harmful one. <snip>

lizzyben:

Well, IMO it was the exact same process. LV doesn't say that the 
memory extraction process killed her, just that it damaged her mind 
& body beyond repair - then he killed her instantly with an AK. If 
DD used the same process, and didn't instantly kill the subjects, 
they'd likely die more slowly as a result of the actual extraction 
process. 

Catlady:
I feel sure that Rowling intended the latter, or else she would have 
had DD confess in the 'King's Cross' scene.

lizzyben: 

Oh, but he does confess:

"Master of Death, Harry, master of Death! Was I better, ultimately, 
than Voldemort?"
"Of course you were," said Harry. "You never killed if you could 
avoid it!"
"True, true," said Dumbledore, and he was like a child seeking 
reassurance. (DH)

I think that's as close to a confession as we'll ever get from 
Dumbledore for anything. Harry's ringing endorsement (you only 
killed people when you had to!) actually *reassures* Dumbledore. 
When he says, "true, true", he's admitting that he's killed people 
in the past, & accepting Harry's reassurance that it was all done 
for the greater good. That's a whole lot more than Ariana; DD's been 
responsible for the deaths of many people & he knows it. I think 
Morfin & Hokey are among that number - charitably, DD may have felt 
that he could not avoid their deaths, because it was essential to  
obtain their hidden memories in order to find the Horcruxes. JKR has 
stated that DD has been pulling many strings thoughout the entire 
story & IMO this is one example of that. 


lizzyben, who never thought she'd see a connection between Harry 
Potter & the CIA interrogation scandal, but does now!