Failed Friendships (was:Re:Draco, Narcissa and Harry)

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 179929

Betsy_Hp
> What I *am* saying is that Harry never clearly states that there is 
> magic he just will not use.  He does not clearly state that there is 
> a specific form of magic he's fighting against.  And Voldemort 
> doesn't make any such statements either.  So this idea that the 
> series ends with a definitive statement about magic, I don't see 
> where it's coming from.
> 

Pippin:
But he does! "I won't blast people out of my way just because
they're there," said Harry. "That's Voldemort's job." (DH 5)
Harry will find this statement hard to live up to. But he makes
it. And giving up the EW proves he means it, IMO. 

Betsy Hp:
.  Yes, I agree, if a Slytherin recognizes his own 
> lack of worth and properly ingratiates himself to the nearest 
> Gryffindor, then friendly terms occurr.  But I wouldn't ever 
> catagorize Slughorn's and Dumbledore's relationship as one of 
> equals.  Nor would I the relationship between Lily and Snape.

Pippin:
Who ever had a relationship of equals with Dumbledore? And
what's that got to do with friendship anyway? Are you saying
you can only really be friends with the people in your 
section of the bell curve? Geez.

But as for Lily and Snape, oh my very dear: a relationship of equals
is just what they did have, IMO. That was their ruin.

 If Lily had been the sort of controlling person you seem
to think she was, she'd have told Snape that if he valued her
friendship he'd drop those freaks he was hanging out with.
And if he'd been the sort of slavish toady he's accused 
of being, he'd have done it. 

But he wasn't that sort of person. If he liked being kicked
around he'd've stuck with Voldemort. And neither was she.
Telling people not to hang out with freaks was Petunia's job.
YMMV.


> > >>Pippin:
> > Codswallop, in my opinion <g>.
> > Harry puts aside the Elder Wand. At the end of the series,  he's    
> > still not using it. Why not use it, except that he's afraid it      
> > would make doing dark magic too easy? How did he come to fear that, 
> > except by learning how easy it already was? 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Two leaps too many, sorry.  Where does it say that Harry put aside 
> the Elder Wand because he was worried about using dark magic?  Where 
> do we see Harry frightened by his use of dark magic?

Pippin:
He calls it "the world's most dangerous wand." He doesn't like the way
that Ron and Hermione look at it with reverence. (DH 36)

He's been told by Dumbledore about making the Hallows 
hard to find so that he wouldn't be tempted to use them thoughtlessly.
He's been told that Dumbledore made it difficult for himself to
interfere in wizarding affairs -- more difficult than it would have
been if he'd been Minister of Magic, anyway. 

It all goes to show that choosing what's right instead of what is easy
isn't only making yourself do what's right when you know it will
be difficult. It's stopping yourself from doing what's easy before
you've considered whether it would be right. Putting aside the
wand shows that Harry absorbed the lesson.

> 
> > >>Pippin:
> > Dark wizards can repent. They can put their souls back together, if 
> > they're willing to risk the pain. Grindelwald apparently did so.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Again with the leaping.  Tom Riddle and Grindelwald are two 
> completely different men, from what little we've seen.

Pippin:
What has that got to do with it? They're subject to the same laws
of magic. You tear a soul apart by murder, which Grindelwald
certainly did,  you put it together by remorse. Where in canon does 
it say that Voldemort can't feel remorse? 

In GoF, he noticed to his own surprise (and mine)
that he was becoming sentimental about his past. He even seemed
elated that his "true family" had returned and disappointed that
they hadn't been equally elated to join him. Those were the
early signs that Harry's blood had made a change in him.

In DH he begins by admitting that he's made mistakes. He's
unable to regret damage he's done to other people, but he's
quite able to regret damage he's done to himself. We know
through Harry's visions that Voldemort has a great ability to endure
pain. All he has to do is really feel the pain he's caused 
by tearing his soul.  

But we have seen that remorse makes people want to die, and IMO this
is why he rejected it, not because it was something he couldn't feel.

> > >>Pippin:
> > This book is about Harry learning that there needs to be a change, 
> > that fighting evil isn't just a matter of getting rid of the       
> > psychos/dark wizards.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Where does Harry learn that?

Pippin:
Mostly in OOP, where Dumbledore explains that the golden fountain
is a lie, that Kreacher is what wizards made him, that wizards have
exploited and oppressed their fellow creatures for too long, and they
are now paying a price for it. Harry didn't really understand it then.
He thought  Sirius was noble and deserved to be adored even by
the House Elf he mistreated. But in DH Harry learned better. 

> 
> Betsy Hp:
> And I grew up in NYC. <g>  Yeah, finding your own way is good, but 
> that's not what the WW is about.  And they're certainly not 
> interested in unity.  At all.  Except in the kind where all 
> the "lesser than's" unite at their feet to worship and adore.

Pippin:
Exactly. The fountain of magical brotherhood did reflect what
a lot of wizards would consider the ideal. But not only is reality
not like that,  Harry doesn't think it should be.  He realizes
that the witch and wizard in the fountain have a fatuous expression.
It's not a noble vision after all. 

Hopefully  the rapidity with which their supposedly noble 
society fell to Voldemort may have taught the WW something. At least
they put Kingsley in charge, and we know he believes that Muggle
lives are worth just as much as wizard ones. Ron and Harry took
driver's tests. That Ron cheats shows it wasn't just a lark -- they
needed to pass for some reason. Things have changed. 

We're shown that a change like that isn't made by magic. It's made
by people learning from their mistakes. And that's where the story
ends. I'd love to read a story by Rowling about people working for
social change, but you don't need the Potterverse for that. Educating
people about *why* there needs to be social change, OTOH, the
Potterverse did very well. IMO.  

Pippin