Failed Friendships (was:Re:Draco, Narcissa and Harry)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 179942

> >>Betsy_Hp
> > What I *am* saying is that Harry never clearly states that there 
> > is magic he just will not use.
> > <snip>

> >>Pippin:
> But he does! "I won't blast people out of my way just because
> they're there," said Harry. "That's Voldemort's job." (DH 5)

Betsy Hp:
Harry's talking about stunning people who are far up enough in the 
air that the fall will kill them as well as AKs.  So this passage 
actually proves my point: this battle between Harry and Voldemort has 
nothing to do with a specific form of magic.

> >>Pippin:
> Harry will find this statement hard to live up to. But he makes
> it. And giving up the EW proves he means it, IMO. 

Betsy Hp:
I don't think the Elder Wand proves anything.  Harry can stun or AK 
with his regular wand.   The brother wand of Voldemort's for that 
matter, which drives home even more (IMO) that the battle is not 
about magic.

> >>Pippin:
> Who ever had a relationship of equals with Dumbledore? And
> what's that got to do with friendship anyway?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I totally agree.  So yes, Dumbledore is not your go-to-guy for an 
example of a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin. <eg>

> >>Pippin:
> But as for Lily and Snape, oh my very dear: a relationship of equals
> is just what they did have, IMO. That was their ruin.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yeah, no they weren't.  Lily never begged Snape for forgiveness.  And 
their friendship started to unravel the moment they got sorted into 
different houses.  It did not survive the seperation.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > Where does it say that Harry put aside the Elder Wand because he 
> > was worried about using dark magic?  Where do we see Harry       
> > frightened by his use of dark magic?

> >>Pippin:
> He calls it "the world's most dangerous wand." He doesn't like the 
> way that Ron and Hermione look at it with reverence. (DH 36)

Betsy Hp:
But there's nothing said specifically about dark magic.  And since 
dark magic is so ill defined within the series, I really need to see 
a specific reference made or I cannot follow the link.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> He's been told that Dumbledore made it difficult for himself to
> interfere in wizarding affairs -- more difficult than it would have
> been if he'd been Minister of Magic, anyway. 
> It all goes to show that choosing what's right instead of what is   
> easy isn't only making yourself do what's right when you know it   
> will be difficult. It's stopping yourself from doing what's easy   
> before you've considered whether it would be right. Putting aside   
> the wand shows that Harry absorbed the lesson.

Betsy Hp:
Okay.  But again, none of this has anything to do with dark magic.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> Where in canon does it say that Voldemort can't feel remorse?
> <snip> 

Betsy Hp:
All those times he doesn't feel any. <g>  Even as an innocent child 
he has no remorse for those he's tortured.  (Seriously, JKR gave him 
so many of the characteristics of a budding serial killer.  I'd been 
expecting to meet a little boy who was about to be led wrong. Instead 
we met a child who just *was* wrong.  And about to enter a world 
least equipped to handle him.)

> >>Pippin:
> > This book is about Harry learning that there needs to be a       
> > change, that fighting evil isn't just a matter of getting rid of 
> > the psychos/dark wizards.
> > <snip>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Where does Harry learn that?
 
> Pippin:
> Mostly in OOP, where Dumbledore explains that the golden fountain
> is a lie, that Kreacher is what wizards made him, that wizards have
> exploited and oppressed their fellow creatures for too long, and    
> they are now paying a price for it.

Betsy Hp:
So in DH Harry makes Kreacher into the perfect slave, and exploits 
one of his fellow creatures.  His price is his happy little 
afterwords.  Pretty grim. <g>

> >>Pippin:
> Harry didn't really understand it then. He thought  Sirius was     
> noble and deserved to be adored even by the House Elf he           
> mistreated. But in DH Harry learned better. 

Betsy Hp:
Harry became a very good slave owner, giving the poor dear little 
trinkets and the like.  Let that be a lesson to you, kids!  If your 
slave seems down, some baubles or beads along with a kind word will 
do wonders and they'll be back in the kitchen, scrubbing your floors 
in no time.  (Thanks, JKR!)
 
> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> Hopefully  the rapidity with which their supposedly noble 
> society fell to Voldemort may have taught the WW something.
> <snip>
> We're shown that a change like that isn't made by magic. It's made
> by people learning from their mistakes.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I don't think we're shown that at all.  At least I don't see Harry 
*ever* confronting the idea that he made mistakes and that he needs 
to learn from them.  Anytime it seems like he's circling that way, 
JKR undermines the lesson by assuring Harry that no, he really is 
that perfect.

Example 1: In OotP, Harry feels guilty for assuming that he's a 
better leader than Ron and should have been made Prefect.  He seems 
to get the lesson that it's okay for your friends to be better than 
you at something and to get recognized for it.

And then Dumbledore comes along at the end and says, oh no, Harry you 
really *are* the better leader than Ron.  It was totally correct (and 
clever!) of you to doubt his being made Prefect.  I only did it 
because I just love you to bits and bits.

Example 2:  In DH Harry learns that Snape was on his side all along.  
One would presume the lesson would be that Harry should no longer 
decide if someone's on his side based on how well they like him.  But 
that's undermined before it even gets off the ground by the 
revelation that Snape really was a nasty, pathetic man, unhealthly 
obsessed by Harry's mother, totally cognizant of his own nasty 
pathetic-ness and so devoting his life to Harry's.  IOWs, Snape was 
barely a man to begin with.  

That along with a side helping of Zach Smith the great big coward 
reinforces the idea that only people who properly appreciate Harry 
(ie, think he's *wonderful*) are really on his side.

So no, I don't think Harry learns anything, I don't think these books 
teach anything (good), and I don't think anything changes at all in 
the WW.  Voldemort dies.  That is all.

Betsy Hp