CHAPDISC: DH10, Kreacher's Tale

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 180084

Mike:
I first want to praise colebiancardi for a most excellent summary
and some of the best, probing questions I've seen in a chapter 
discussion. I'm afraid I went on rather long because of that. ;)


> Questions:
> 
> 1. Do you think that Sirius actually stayed in his old room in 
> "The Order of the Phoenix" or that he stayed in another bedroom? 
> 
> Carol responds:
> <snip>
> Then, again, he's been dead for more than a year when Harry enters 
> the room in DH, so that's probably enough time for mice, spiders, 
> and dust to take over the room. (As for how that letter got
> there. . . .)

Mike:
I left Carol's second guess because of "the letter" problem. The only 
way I can see that letter getting to 12 GP was if Sirius brought it 
with him, or if someone like Lupin brought him stuff from his pre-
Azkaban digs. At any rate, I can't see Sirius hiding that letter in a 
room he wasn't sleeping in.

Secondly, being in that house was bad enough. Why wouldn't he have 
moved into the one place he considered a sanctuary from the rest of 
his family's ostentatious displays of their political leanings?



> 3. Why is Lily's letter addressed to "Padfoot" instead of Sirius? 
> Is this just a term of affection or was Sirius underground at the 
> time of the letter?  
> 
> Carol:
> <snip>
> I think her use of the nicknames shows that they've included 
> her in their circle, of which she wasn't yet a member in SWM 
> or Snape's Hogwarts memories in "The Prince's Tale." 

Mike:
I am of the impression that the Marauders nicknames weren't any 
secret at all. They are using them right out in the open, in front
of a substantial crowd of students in SWM. Therefore, Lily's use 
of "Padfoot" is probably simply endearing.




> 4. Kreacher mentions that Sirius' leaving home broke his mother's
> heart.  Does this new bit of information seem to contradict 
> Sirius' story about his relationship with his family? 
> 
> Carol:
> <snip>
> But I believe that Sirius's leaving home and not returning really
> did break her heart (it would break any mother's), and that,
> followed by Regulus's death and by the death of her husband 
> caused her to lose her grip on sanity. Sirius didn't know or
> care. He just thought she was crazy and evil.

Mike:
I loved Sirius, but he did have a cruel streak. Maybe that's why I 
liked him, he wasn't artificially perfect. So I can see him being 
both rebellious and cold-hearted towards his parents. By the same 
token, I can see his mother's "love" for her sons being rationed 
based on how well those sons followed their mother's teachings. I 
don't think Kreacher was privy to the insight behind MA Black's 
broken heart.



> 5. Regulus joined the DEs when he was 16, which means that
> Voldemort really had no age limit for his recruits.  How does
> this contrast with the Order of the Phoenix?  Ignoring that the
> DE's are evil and the Order is good, do you think that the DEs
> support the notion of fighting for what you believe in, regardless
> of age?  In other words, do you agree with the Order's stance of
> not allowing underage wizards to join or do you agree with the
> Death Eater's stance instead?

Mike:
This is such a good question!  I can certainly see Dumbledore's and 
the Order's intentions of letting the children be children for as 
long as possible. DD expresses this intent towards Harry in his end 
of OotP exposition.

Alas, call me cynical, but the idea that DD is both training Harry 
to eventually fight Voldemort and trying to allow him a "normal" 
childhood seems disingenuous at best and hypocritical at worst.

Sirius doesn't believe keeping Harry in the dark about the prophesy 
is the right move, and I agree. I had always put this down to DD's 
penchant for secrecy, but this question has caused me to rethink that 
assessment. Certainly the content of the prophesy was a secret that 
DD didn't want to tell anyone. But the fact that it existed was 
obviously revealed to the adult Order members. 

So keeping that secret from Harry must have been DD's continuing 
attempt towards Harry's normal childhood. DD admits that this was a 
mistake but then DD calls this a failing of those that love. I think 
he was equivocating for himself, making an excuse. This failed to 
convince me at that time, and looks even worse from the retrospective 
of DH. DD has been training Harry since PS/SS, we know this from "The 
Prince's Tale". To say that he was shielding Harry from the "real 
world" for Harry's benefit while he was training Harry for that 
same "real world" doesn't wash with me. 

It looks more like a distinctly un-Gryffindorish act of cowardice on 
DD's part. He says he doesn't want to add to Harry's burdens after 
watching Harry struggle with so many in the past. But DD was part and 
parcel of those other burdens. DD ordered the building of the PS/SS 
maze and even Harry sensed that DD wanted him to have a go at it. DD 
knew what was turning those students to stone and knew Harry was "on 
the case" as it were. He also knew that Harry spoke Parceltongue and 
that that would most likely be needed to get into the CoS. DD sent 
Harry and Hermione back in PoA, Hermione hadn't thought of it 
herself. And since Harry obviously hadn't entered himself into the 
TWT, they could have hanged the "wizarding contract" that compelled 
Harry to participate. Aren't these the burdens you speak of there 
Albus?

I don't have a problem with Molly and Arthur forbidding their 
children from joining. That's a parents prerogative. Although I 
question their judgement on prohibiting the of-age Gred and Forge 
from joining. But did you notice that Dumbledore, after changing his 
mind on Harry, supercedes the Weasley's authority by telling Harry to 
include Ron in on the secrets?



> 6. After Kreacher returns from the cave and tells his tale to 
> Regulus, where do you think Regulus went?  Do you think Regulus 
> talked to anyone or just did book research?
> 
> Carol:
> Who could he have talked to?  <snip>
> Maybe he bought some books there or read books on
> Dark Magic in his parents' library.

Mike:
I'm with Carol, I really disliked how DD didn't include Snape in the 
secret of the Horcruxes, and still made Snape participate in his 
arcane plans. That said, I still doubt Reggie would have gone to 
Snape with his change of heart news. I too think Reggie must have 
found the concept of Horcruxes within one of the Black Dark Arts 
library books.



> 8. How did you feel when Regulus' death was revealed?  I found
> this to be the most tragic death of all of the deaths in the
> series.  Do you feel that Regulus redeemed himself?

Mike:
I was a little disappointed that Reggie got the type of anti-
Voldemort story line that I wanted Snape to get, his own reason to 
hate LV apart from being on the side of good. Yeah, I know, love of 
Lily was that, but so much less noble than Reggie's stance on elf 
rights. Unfortunately, since Kreacher wasn't privy to Reggie's reason 
for his actions, we don't know if elf rights was Reggie's only 
reason. This only adds to the tragedy that was the short life of 
Regulus Black.

It's not my belief that one needs redemption from being a Slytherin, 
if that's a part of your question. Does Regulus need redemption from 
joining the DEs? IMO, no more than Ginny needed from getting sucked 
in by the Riddle in the Diary. Does Regulus need redemption from 
believing in his parents Slytherinish attitudes, as Sirius paints 
him? I'm no longer prepared to take Sirius' word for what all went on 
with the rest of his family. Sirus obviously didn't understand his 
brother all that well. Just because Regulus didn't rebel to the 
degree that Sirius does (and how many kids go that far?), doesn't 
mean that Regulus bought into his parents attitudes hook, line, and 
sinker in the manner that Sirius assumes of him. IOW, I'm not sure 
Regulus needs all that much redemption in the first place.



> 9. Do you think Regulus should have done more to let others know
> what Voldemort was up to?

Mike:
How? Owling Dumbledore? I think once Regulus discovered the Horcrux 
angle and decided to act he was under time pressure to do it quickly. 
He was no doubt aware of Voldemort's proclivity for finding traitors 
within his ranks, and didn't want to give LV the chance to discover 
his change of heart.


> 10. How do you feel about Kreacher at the end of this tale?  Did 
> you feel empathy for him?  Is Kreacher's attitude now explainable 
> and understandable?

Mike:
I still didn't like what he did in OotP by going to Narcisa. If I'm 
suppose to feel empathy for Kreacher because he's a slave, then yes, 
I'm sorry for the enchantment that puts all elves in this condition. 
But house elves seem to have some degree of self determination. Dobby 
was willing to defy the Malfoys and put up with the self punishment. 
Kreacher, likewise, betrayed Sirius and hurt himself for his elfy 
penance. The difference, Dobby acted to defend his living hero, 
Harry. Kreacher acted to uphold his dead mistress' credo and to 
punish that mistress' son for the perceived "breaking of her heart". 
Not the same thought process as Dobby's, not a reasonable action imo.


> > 11.	Does Hermione's explanation - Voldemort's contempt for
> house-elves was his downfall in Kreacher's escape from the cave - 
> make sense?  Do you think her parallel of Voldemort's and Sirius' 
> attitude towards house-elves was warranted, or a bit extreme?

Mike:
I think Hermione was right about Sirius' attitude towards Kreacher 
*and* an extreme parallel. Sirius didn't think house elves were 
expendable, like LV. Sirius just didn't like Kreacher, and the 
feeling was mutual. 


> 12. Harry's attitude finally changes towards Kreacher, with his
> tale and Hermione's explanation.  Is this a turning point for
> Harry in  regards for empathy and understanding or do you feel
> that Harry has already made strides in this area with other
> characters?  Do you have examples, if the latter?
> 
> Carol responds:
> Setting aside Dobby, I think that Harry's understanding of and
> empathy for people outside his immediate circle begins with his
> delayed appreciation of Neville and Luna, continues with his
> ability to feel pity for Draco  <snip>

Mike:
As many have pointed out, Harry doesn't go through a lot of learning 
from his mistakes in this series. If anything, Harry learns what the 
WW is all about, then has to move away from some of the things he 
learns, especially from Ron.

On house elves in general; Harry starts out treating Dobby as he 
would any wizard, he doesn't treat him like a slave. Harry takes the 
measure of Winky's devotion to the Crouches differently than Hermione 
does. During OotP, Harry is mostly bemused by Kreacher, but he 
doesn't quite know what to make of him. By the time Harry inherits 
Kreacher, he's moved to some middle ground between Ron and Hermione. 
He's accepted house elf's enslavement, but he really doesn't want to 
participate. Harry hated Kreacher for what he did to Sirius.

Harry had to unlearn house elves are just slaves, both from Ron's 
and Hermione's original perspectives. In the end, Harry has come to 
accept Hermione's revised slave definition, he just had to go back 
to treating Kreacher the way he originally treated Dobby. Learned 
of the WW's house elves, then unlearned how the WW nominally treats 
them.

In a way this parallels Harry's learning curve about Slytherins. He 
learns early on that all Slytherins are bad. That only gets 
reinforced by Draco Malfoy. But, in the end, Harry has come to 
realize that Slytherins are individuals too. That he can't broad 
brush them in the way Hagrid did for him. Harry unlearns the 
prejudice that was thrust upon him by the time DH is over. Of course, 
there were a lot more reasons for Harry to hate all Slytherins 
throughout the series.

Mike, who wants to reiterate his thanks to colebiancardi for her 
excellent questions :)


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/180074

Potioncat:
When did I start calling Lupin by his Christian name?

Mike:
June 12, 2007. Did I win? ;)