CHAPDISC: DH10, Kreacher's Tale

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 180090

> > 10. How do you feel about Kreacher at the end of this tale?  Did 
> > you feel empathy for him?  Is Kreacher's attitude now explainable 
> > and understandable?
> 
> Mike:
> I still didn't like what he did in OotP by going to Narcisa. If I'm 
> suppose to feel empathy for Kreacher because he's a slave, then 
yes, 
> I'm sorry for the enchantment that puts all elves in this 
condition. 
> But house elves seem to have some degree of self determination. 
Dobby 
> was willing to defy the Malfoys and put up with the self 
punishment. 
> Kreacher, likewise, betrayed Sirius and hurt himself for his elfy 
> penance. The difference, Dobby acted to defend his living hero, 
> Harry. Kreacher acted to uphold his dead mistress' credo and to 
> punish that mistress' son for the perceived "breaking of her 
heart". 
> Not the same thought process as Dobby's, not a reasonable action 
imo.


a_svirn:
Actually, it is exactly the same thought process. The way you 
describe it, they are practically mirror images of each other. 
Personally, I much prefer a Kreacher of OotP  to a Kreacher of DH. He 
was wrongheaded in both cases, but he's gone from rebellious to 
servile – not what I'd call an improvement. 

> 
> > > 11.	Does Hermione's explanation - Voldemort's contempt for
> > house-elves was his downfall in Kreacher's escape from the cave - 
> > make sense?  Do you think her parallel of Voldemort's and Sirius' 
> > attitude towards house-elves was warranted, or a bit extreme?
> 
> Mike:
> I think Hermione was right about Sirius' attitude towards Kreacher 
> *and* an extreme parallel. Sirius didn't think house elves were 
> expendable, like LV. Sirius just didn't like Kreacher, and the 
> feeling was mutual. 

a_svirn:
I do not agree that Hermione equated Sirius's treatment of Kreacher 
with that of Voldemort. She simply said that Sirius treated Kreacher 
badly. Which he did. 
> 
> 
> > 12. Harry's attitude finally changes towards Kreacher, with his
> > tale and Hermione's explanation.  Is this a turning point for
> > Harry in  regards for empathy and understanding or do you feel
> > that Harry has already made strides in this area with other
> > characters?  Do you have examples, if the latter?
> > 
> > Carol responds:
> > Setting aside Dobby, I think that Harry's understanding of and
> > empathy for people outside his immediate circle begins with his
> > delayed appreciation of Neville and Luna, continues with his
> > ability to feel pity for Draco  <snip>
> 
> Mike:
<SNIP> On house elves in general; Harry starts out treating Dobby as 
he 
> would any wizard, he doesn't treat him like a slave. <SNIP>
> 
> Harry had to unlearn house elves are just slaves, both from Ron's 
> and Hermione's original perspectives. 

a_svirn:
What do you mean "unlearn"? Kreacher is still a slave at the end of 
the series. If anything, it was Hermione who had to unlearn the 
liberal spewish rubbish. 

> Mike:
In the end, Harry has come to 
> accept Hermione's revised slave definition, he just had to go back 
> to treating Kreacher the way he originally treated Dobby. 

a_svirn:
How come? You yourself just said that Harry *didn't* treat Dobby like 
a slave. He, however, most definitely treats Kreacher like a slave, 
more specifically *his* slave (because that's what Kreacher is, after 
all). And Kreacher loves it. 

> Mike:
> In a way this parallels Harry's learning curve about Slytherins. He 
> learns early on that all Slytherins are bad. That only gets 
> reinforced by Draco Malfoy. But, in the end, Harry has come to 
> realize that Slytherins are individuals too. That he can't broad 
> brush them in the way Hagrid did for him. 

a_svirn:
I think he always knew that. They just happen to be  particularly bad 
individuals -- with a very few exceptions. So few, in fact, that it 
hardly counts. 

a_svirn