CHAPDISC: DH10, Kreacher's Tale - Dumbledore

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 180091

---  "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:
>
> Mike:
> I first want to praise colebiancardi for a most excellent 
> summary and some of the best, probing questions I've seen 
> in a chapter discussion. I'm afraid I went on rather long 
> because of that. ;)
> 
> 

bboyminn:

I too want to thank Colebiancardi for an excellent summary,
and some great questions.

While I greatly appreciate and look forward to Mike's
contributions to the group, I do want to take exception
with one small point.

> 
> Mike:
> ...  I can certainly see ... letting the children be children
> for as long as possible. DD expresses this intent towards 
> Harry in his end of OotP exposition.
> 
> Alas, call me cynical, but the idea that DD is both training
> Harry to eventually fight Voldemort and trying to allow him 
> a "normal" childhood seems disingenuous at best and 
> hypocritical at worst.
> 
> ...
> 
> So keeping that secret [the Prophecy] from Harry must have 
> been DD's continuing attempt towards Harry's normal childhood.
> DD admits that this was a mistake ... a failing of those that 
> love. I think he was ... making an excuse. This failed to 
> convince me at that time, and looks even worse from the 
> retrospective of DH. 
> 
> DD has been training Harry since PS/SS, we know this from 
> "The Prince's Tale". To say that he was shielding Harry from
> the "real world" for Harry's benefit while he was training 
> Harry for that same "real world" doesn't wash with me. 
> 
> It looks more like a distinctly un-Gryffindorish act of 
> cowardice on DD's part. He says he doesn't want to add to 
> Harry's burdens after watching Harry struggle with so many 
> in the past. 

bboyminn:

Now we are to the part I disagree with.

> Mike continues:
> But DD was part and parcel of those other  burdens. DD 
> ordered the building of the PS/SS maze and even Harry sensed
> that DD wanted him to have a go at it. 

bboyminn:

Not sure if I should make comments on the way, or make one
big comment at the end. 

True Dumbledore built the series of chambers to protect the
Stone and may have even thought Harry might have a go at it.
But how did he manipulate Harry into doing it? He didn't as
far as I'm concerned.

Once again I ask where were all the other students when Harry,
Ron, and Hermione were off on their adventures? Safe and
snuggly warm in their beds, that's where, and Harry fully 
had the same option available to him. No one would have 
thought less of him, if he had followed McGonagall's advice
when she found them camped outside Fuffy's door. That advice
was to let the grown ups handle it. Everything was covered,
everything was safe; now go back to bed! 

Nobody made Harry do anything, but Harry's own nature took
over. Harry simply could not leave it to the adults when he
was sure that the adults had already failed. Snape was on 
his way to the Stone, Snape had inside information, no one
suspected Snape but Harry (& friends). The Stone wasn't 
Harry's, he didn't gain or lose by someone stealing it. But
Harry was determined that Voldemort would never get the
Stone while he, Harry, was alive.

This is not Dumbledore opening the door and pushing Harry
through. Even though Dumbledore might have thought Harry
might have a go, Dumbledore didn't push him. In fact,
Dumbledore through his staff did everything possible to
discourage Harry.

So, in my view Dumbledore's 'test' wasn't whether Harry would
succeed, but whether Harry would try, whether Harry would care.
Whether Harry, like all the other students, would shrug his 
shoulders and say 'not my problem', or whether he would go 
above and beyond the call of duty. In every case, as we shall
see, Harry is very much an 'above and beyond the call of duty'
kind of guy.

> Mike Continues:
>
> DD knew what was turning those students to stone and knew 
> Harry was "on the case" as it were. He also knew that Harry 
> spoke Parceltongue and that that would most likely be needed
> to get into the CoS. 

bboyminn:

Again, I disagree, where is the proof, or even the indication,
that Dumbledore knew what was harassing the castle? He knew
/something/ was petrifying people, he knew it was probably
the Slytherin monster, he knew it probably hid in the 
Chamber of Secrets. But he didn't know what it was or where 
it was. He knew there was /A/ Chamber of Secrets but he
didn't know where it was or how to get in. 

Once again, Dumbledore is not making Harry do anything. Harry
is taking the initiative. I suspect that Dumbledore and any
of the other staff would have forbid Harry to go after the
Monster. They would have taken his information and gone them-
selves. But, again, Harry is not going to waste precious 
hours trying to convince the adults. He is not going to risk
being told to 'go to bed' again when Ginny's life is at stake.
Above and beyond the call of duty, he is determined to take 
actions NOW. 


>Mike continues:
>
> DD sent Harry and Hermione back in PoA, Hermione hadn't 
> thought of it herself. 

bboyminn:

OK, this one I will /sort of/ give you. But Dumbledore had
only learned or been convinced just moments before that Sirius
was innocent. It was a desperate moment that called for 
desperate measures. The Dementors were on their way. Sirius's
life was at stake. Harry and Hermione had already proven 
themselves intelligent, quick witted, resourceful, daring, 
and brave. What was Dumbledore to do? Involve himself, or 
allow Harry to save Sirius. 

True in this case I do see Dumbledore engaging in a bit of
self-protection, let's call it 'plausible deniability'. He
could have taken the necklace/TimeTurner and gone to save
Sirius. But Dumbledore vouching for the innocents of Harry
and Hermione is a lot more powerful than Harry and Hermione
vouching for the innocents of Dumbledore.

This is probably the dodgiest of all of Dumbledore's action
up to this point. Still it was a good plan that worked. And
as long as Harry and Hermione followed the Time Traveler
Rules, there was little risk, or so it seemed. 

>Mike continues again:
>
> And since Harry obviously hadn't entered himself into the TWT,
> they could have hanged the "wizarding contract" that compelled 
> Harry to participate. Aren't these the burdens you speak of 
> there Albus?
> 

bboyminn:

Again, this isn't about Albus, it's about Harry. Any other
kid would have realized he was out-gunned and out-matched, and
would have ate his pride and tanked the Tournament. Harry 
could have coasted through the tournament and been quite safe.
He could have participated according to the rule of the Binding
Magical Contract, and still have been safe. 

He could have gone out to face the dragon and said, 'sorry,
don't have a clue, can't do it'. He would have been dead last
but he would have been safe. In the underwater portion, Harry
could have dove in, swam around a bit and came back. He tried,
he fail, that's the way the tournament goes.

But Harry's determination to win, to succeed against all odds,
it's the driving factor here. It seems that 'tanking it' is 
what everyone expected Harry to do. When Harry come close to 
winning time after time, they are as amazed as we are. 

Once again, we have a case of Harry going 'above and beyond
the call of duty' when he really doesn't have to. 

Dumbledore isn't making Harry /DO/ anything. Harry can chose
to stay toasty warm in his bed. He can let the adults sort
it out. He can /dog/ his way through the tournament, and
really, in the long run, no one is going to hold it against
him. So, while Dumbledore is not making Harry DO anything,
Harry is certainly showing Dumbledore what he is made of.
Showing Dumbledore that he is a strong determined couragious
self-determined resourceful person who is not going to sit 
back while others are in harms way. 

Dumbledore, in my opinion, isn't polishing Harry, he is simply
allowing Harry to shine.

True, I must admit that Dumbledore is aware that Harry has 
a dark, dangerous, and deadly path ahead of him, and that,
whether he wants to or not, Voldemort will force Harry to 
meet his ultimate fate. But, I really don't see this as
Dumbledore's fault. 

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn