CHAPDISC: DH10, Kreacher's Tale - Dumbledore

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 180153


Mike:
Let me start with a Dumbledorian quote, told to Snape just after
the argument in the forest in HBP:

"We have protected him because it has been essential to teach him,
to raise him, to let him try his strength," <HBP p. 687, US Ed.>

Since Harry has done nothing to "try his strength" at this point in 
HBP, and since DD was clearly trying to keep the information of the 
prophesy *from* Harry in OotP, this kind of forces us to assume DD 
was referring to things Harry got up to in the first four books.


[PS/SS]
> bboyminn:
> 
> True Dumbledore built the series of chambers to protect the
> Stone and may have even thought Harry might have a go at it.
> But how did he manipulate Harry into doing it? He didn't as
> far as I'm concerned. <snip>

Mike:
Let's look at those chambers, shall we?
1) Getting past Cerberus,... I mean Fluffy. One had to get the 
secret out of Hagrid. Who did Dumbledore send to gather up Harry and 
introduce him to the WW? What were the chances Hagrid would take a 
shine to the boy?
2) Herbology with Devil's Snare. They'll have to be able to conjure 
fire. Hmm, any one of the Trio any good at that?
3) Quidditch Seeking, but of a slow flying key. Questions?
4) Transfiguration. What did they have to transfigure, you say? Well, 
nothing actually. They had to play chess. Is one of them any good at 
this?
5) Fun with Trolls. Ooh, finally something daunting. But wait, they 
already beat one of those. And, since they would be following 
Quirrell, they probably wouldn't have to defeat this one anyway.
6) Potions. What did they have to brew up? Uh, nothing,... again. 
It's a logic puzzle.
7) Divination. Well, what else should I call the Mirror of Erised? 
Anyway, I believe our charming headmaster accidently let slip how 
this thing works.

We only know that Fluffy was set up before school starts. The others 
could have been set up or changed later. So who were these chambers 
set up for? Who could "try his strength" overcoming these? Was there 
any chance Quirrell would gain the stone without Harry? No! So these 
chambers would be there for if-ever or whenever Harry decided to try 
his strength. Maybe DD did nothing to prompt Harry, or maybe he 
played on the boy's fear of Voldemort returning, during some of those 
times when Harry didn't know DD was watching him.


[CoS]
> bboyminn:
> 
> Again, I disagree, where is the proof, or even the indication,
> that Dumbledore knew what was harassing the castle? He knew
> /something/ was petrifying people, he knew it was probably
> the Slytherin monster, he knew it probably hid in the 
> Chamber of Secrets. But he didn't know what it was or where 
> it was. He knew there was /A/ Chamber of Secrets but he
> didn't know where it was or how to get in.

Mike:
This one is a little more dicey, I might have to give you this one. 
Though I doubt very much that Dumbledore didn't know what kind of 
monster petrifies it's victims, or kills without marking. I don't 
have a copy of FB, how many beasties in there turn their victims to 
stone?

DD also knew *who* opened the CoS, just not *how*. Knew the *who* 
spoke Parceltongue and that Harry did as well.

My problem here was DD looking at Harry and Ron, while they are 
under the IC in Hagrid's hut, and giving them the "those that ask for 
help" line. Then his faithful Phoenix provides the help, in more ways 
than one. Then we come to find that DD has been reinstated and is 
waiting in McGonnagall's office when the adventurers emerge from the 
Chamber. There are a few too many coincidents here for me to believe 
DD had no part in Harry's rescue attempt.


[PoA]
> bboyminn:
> 
> OK, this one I will /sort of/ give you. 

Mike:
I'll take it. ;)


[GoF]
> bboyminn:
> 
> Again, this isn't about Albus, it's about Harry. <snip>  Harry 
> could have coasted through the tournament and been quite safe.
> He could have participated according to the rule of the Binding
> Magical Contract, and still have been safe.

Mike:
This one is definitely the strongest one on the board. First off,
we have a long dormant tournament being resurrected in a mighty 
convenient timeframe, and Dumbledore is key to getting this done. 
Second, this whole thing with the "magical contract" should obviously 
not have applied to Harry, yet DD cleverly convinces all that it 
does. 



> bboyminn:
> 
> But Harry's determination to win, to succeed against all odds,
> it's the driving factor here. It seems that 'tanking it' is 
> what everyone expected Harry to do.

Mike:
Don't you think Dumbledore has taken the measure of Harry by now? I 
don't think Dumbledore expected Harry to "tank it". On the contrary, 
I think Dumbledore was counting on Harry's sense of honor to do his 
best.


> bboyminn:
> 
> Once again, we have a case of Harry going 'above and beyond
> the call of duty' when he really doesn't have to. 

Mike:
No argument here. But we wouldn't have much of a story if Harry 
wasn't the type of character to go "above and beyond".


> bboyminn:
> 
> Dumbledore, in my opinion, isn't polishing Harry, he is simply
> allowing Harry to shine.

Mike:
I harkin back to the quote. Teach him, raise him, try his strength. 
It makes no sense if Dumbledore was this master manipulator claiming 
these objectives for Harry's education, yet all these tests for Harry 
were purely accidental.



> bboyminn:
> 
> True, I must admit that Dumbledore is aware that Harry has 
> a dark, dangerous, and deadly path ahead of him, and that,
> whether he wants to or not, Voldemort will force Harry to 
> meet his ultimate fate. But, I really don't see this as
> Dumbledore's fault.

Mike:
Not his fault, Steve, his objective.