CHAPDISC: DH10, Kreacher's Tale

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 180093

> > Mike:
> > <snip>
> > The difference, Dobby acted to defend his living hero, Harry.
> > Kreacher acted to uphold his dead mistress' credo and to punish
> > that mistress' son for the perceived "breaking of her heart". 
> > Not the same thought process as Dobby's, not a reasonable action
> > imo.
> 
> 
> a_svirn:
> Actually, it is exactly the same thought process. The way you 
> describe it, they are practically mirror images of each other. 

Mike:
Let me flesh this out a little bit. Dobby is the oddball elf. He not 
only refuses to follow his master's way of thinking, he wants to be 
free. No other elf is shown to think the way Dobby does. So when 
Dobby discovers a plot that he thinks will harm Harry Potter, his 
most noble hero, he tries to do something about it. He's still bound 
by his enchantment to punish himself for speaking ill of his master, 
but he thinks it's worth it.

Kreacher is bound to the Black family, he does not have allegiences 
outside of the family. Kreacher is mostly beholden to Walburga, who 
we learn was heartbroken when Sirius leaves. In OotP, Sirius has 
moved back into the house. If Kreacher is so loyal to the Black 
family, why does he hold Sirius in such contempt to the point of 
betraying him? 

Compare Kreacher to Winky. The enmity between Crouch Senior and 
Junior is a chasm compared to the ditch between Sirius and his 
mother. Yet Winky is loyal to both. Which elf am I supposed to 
believe Kreacher is more like, Dobby or Winky? Before DH, I would 
have said Dobby. But after DH, I see that Kreacher has the simple 
mindedness of Winky, able to act the role of a proper elf after 
Harry's simple act of treating him with kindness. And despite Sirius 
never showing Kreacher kindness, he wasn't mistreated in the way 
Dobby was by the Malfoys. 

Shouldn't Kreacher have had more of a reason to betray Sirius than he 
broke his mother's heart by leaving? Shouldn't his returning have 
been an occasion for celebration for Kreacher? There's a cognitive 
dissonance in Kreacher's love for the Blacks and his hatred of the 
last Black. Especially since this hatred seemed to be there from the 
moment Sirius returned to 12 GP.

Finally, Dobby's simple minded goal was to protect Harry Potter. 
Kreacher's simple minded goal was to get revenge on Sirius by helping 
his enemies. Get revenge on Sirius for whom? The mother that grieved 
when he left? Where would Kreacher get the idea that Walburga would 
want to see her estranged son hurt?


> a_svirn:
> I do not agree that Hermione equated Sirius's treatment of 
> Kreacher with that of Voldemort. She simply said that Sirius 
> treated Kreacher badly. Which he did.

Mike:
Yes, but Sirius' treatment of Kreacher was apparently way down on the 
scale of cruelty to house elves. And house elves seem to comunicate 
with each other somehow, don't they? Why didn't Kreacher know how the 
Malfoys, including Narcissa, treated Dobby?



> > Mike:
> > <SNIP> 
> > Harry had to unlearn house elves are just slaves, both from
> > Ron's and Hermione's original perspectives. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> What do you mean "unlearn"? Kreacher is still a slave at the end
> of the series. If anything, it was Hermione who had to unlearn
> the liberal spewish rubbish.

Mike:
Sorry, a little unclear up there. Harry started out with the premise 
that Dobby is just another creature deserving of as much respect as 
any human. In GoF, Harry's friends give him two new views to 
consider. 

Harry is already confused by Dobby and his desires when he encounters 
the other elves. Ron (originally) sees elves as no more than slaves, 
not worthy of consideration. Hermione (originally) sees elves as 
equals to humans, needing to be released from their bondage. After 
bouncing around somewhere between Ron and Hermione, Harry eventually 
learns that they aren't elves (collective), they are individuals. 

He "unlearns" treating them as a group and reverts back to treating 
them as if they each have their own motivations, no matter how simple-
minded they be. Even if he treats Kreacher as his slave, he treats 
him as an individual worthy of respectful treatment within the 
confines of his individual motivations. That is, Kreacher is a house 
elf and takes pride in his house elfness as long as he's treated as a 
being with feelings.



> > Mike:
> > In the end, Harry has come to accept Hermione's revised 
> > slave definition, he just had to go back to treating 
> > Kreacher the way he originally treated Dobby. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> How come? You yourself just said that Harry *didn't* treat Dobby 
> like a slave. He, however, most definitely treats Kreacher like a 
> slave, more specifically *his* slave (because that's what Kreacher
> is, after all). And Kreacher loves it.

Mike:
Did I explain myself better above?



> > Mike:
> > But, in the end, Harry has come to realize that 
> > Slytherins are individuals too. That he can't broad 
> > brush them in the way Hagrid did for him. 
> 
> a_svirn:
> I think he always knew that. They just happen to be  particularly
> bad individuals -- with a very few exceptions. So few, in fact, 
> that it hardly counts. 

Mike:
I really don't think Harry thought of Slytherins as individuals. 
Notice the reaction Slughorn gets when he reveals himself as the 
former Slytherin HoH. Until DH, which Slytherin stood out for Harry 
as different from his/her brethren? None, unless you want to count 
Riddle as standing out as exceptionally psychotic. 

I definitely see the parallel between House Elves and Slytherins from 
Harry's perspective with regard to their individuality. In DH, Harry 
learns of the individuality of several Slytherins, not all revealed 
as better than he thought either. 

He learns Crabbe is more than just one of Draco's cronies, he's even 
more cruel than he thought. He learned that Draco had got himself in 
over his head, and probably regretted it. He learned Sirius' brother 
had more depth to him than just another mind numbed robot DE, even at 
such an early age. He learned Slughorn had more backbone than he had 
originally given him credit. He learned that Pansy was willing to 
stand up and be counted, though not favorably towards Harry. He 
learned Narcissa loved her son so much that she was willing to defy 
Voldemort to protect him. And most of all, he learned that Severus 
Snape would risk his life, and lose it, to protect the son of the 
woman he loved. (Lucius Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange had already 
revealed their detestable individualities, imo)

That about covers the list of significant Slytherins in this series, 
wouldn't you say?

Mike