CHAPDISC: DH10, Kreacher's Tale

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 180137

> Pippin:
> I'm saying it's not disrespectful of the Longbottoms to deprive 
> them of rights they can't use and which would endanger them.

a_svirn:
It isn't. It is neither disrespectful, nor respectful. Respect 
doesn't come into it. You are talking about two separate issues here. 
It wasn't the stuff of St. Mungo's who deprived the Longbottoms of 
their ability to use their free will – the Lestranges did that. And 
they certainly didn't treat Neville's parents with respect. The stuff 
of St. Mungo's treats them with respect, but cannot return them their 
ability to use free will. 

> Pippin:
> As you say, the Longbottoms are treated with respect,
> though not by Draco who makes fun of mentally incapacitated people.
> 
> 
> It doesn't mean much to say the Longbottoms aren't "owned." 
> They are not free to leave St Mungo's or to make decisions about
> their care. 

a_svirn:
No, of course not. Theirs is a tragic story. Kreacher's story is a 
happy one, though. Unlike the Longbottoms Kreacher is conscious about 
his dependant state and happy about it. Not something that inspires 
respect, I'd say. I certainly don't remember Harry expressing his 
respect for Kreacher. Pity, disgust, sympathy, and pity again, but 
not respect. 


> Pippin:
> I don't think it's "using" Kreacher to *ask* him to perform tasks 
> which are within his ability and make him feel useful. 

a_svirn:
I don't quite see why you use quotation marks for "using", as though 
there is some doubt about Kreacher's being used. He most certainly is 
being used, and he is not being *asked*. He is being ordered. 

> Pippin:
It might be
> more harmful to him to refuse to give him any work. 

a_svirn:
It might. I still say that it does not inspire respect. 
> 
> 
> > a_svirn:
> > Was Lot a repentant sinner then? There was that dubious business 
with 
> > his daughters, but it happened after he left Sodom, and I am not 
sure 
> > he repented anyway. 
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> I was thinking of repentant sinners like King David (adultery), 
Moses
> (murder), Jonah (refusing to carry God's word to Ninevah) and Paul 
> (persecuting followers of Jesus). 

a_svirn:
None of whom is usually described as righteous though. Unlike Lot who 
is.

> Pippin: 
> Lot, IMO, wasn't saved because he was repentant but because he was 
> Abraham's nephew and because he did try to save his guests from 
> the citizens of Sodom (though by the hardly admirable expedient
> of offering his daughers instead.) 

a_svirn:
Yeah, I am with you on that one. But I have a feeling that our 
opinion is a trifle unorthodox. 
> 
> > a_svirn:
> > There is a big difference between considering hating all 
Slytherins 
> > as a duty and really hating them. Harry only really hated or 
> > distrusted people for personal reasons, not because of any 
principle.
> >
> 
> Pippin:
> This is way too convoluted for me. Do you see canon making any
> distinctions between hating people and "really" hating them?

a_svirn:
It would be way too convoluted for me too. But that's not what I 
said. I said that there is a difference between *considering* hating 
someone and really *hating* them. 

a_svirn