Christian Forgiveness and Snape (was Would Harry forgiving )

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164445

> Magpie:
>  I think Dumbledore was actually giving in this  scene *exactly* 
the 
> kind of stuff people were demanding of the Queen. "Show 
>  us you care!" the headline said--Dumbledore is Showing He Cares!
> 
> Pippin:
> But you were saying Dumbledore came across as self-serving and
> manipulative, right?

Magpie:
Yes. You can be both. Sometimes the two things go together well. It 
seems like second nature to Dumbledore to be isolated, watching from 
a bird's eye view, and yet also feel his compassion gives him 
understanding of what everyone's going through. I think his "weak 
and foolish" confession is what he'd *like* to say his flaws are, 
not what they really are (at least not the way he's presenting the 
weakness as foolishness). That's the thing about his not having any 
equals in canon. With other characters there's always somebody else 
there giving another view. With Dumbledore the opposite view comes 
from bad guys who are beneath him. 

Pippin:
> 
>  *Harry*  doesn't leave feeling that he's been used or that 
Dumbledore 
> doesn't care about him. It's Dumbledore's public, his unseen and 
> unknown body of readers, (some of them)  who aren't satisfied with 
his 
> behavior in the scene.
> 
>  Dumbledore is giving Harry what he thinks Harry needs, formed by
> his culture and understanding of Harry, not  by ours.

Magpie:
Yes, I know. But this isn't the first time my take on something's 
been different than Harry's. My own issues with Dumbledore in the 
scene don't have to do with the way Harry feels at the end of it. 
I'm not furious on Harry's behalf that Dumbledore dares criticize 
Sirius to him because Harry needs him to be perfect, and it would be 
very out of character for Harry to think about Dumbledore's words 
the way I do; he just doesn't think the way I do most of the time. 

I think Dumbledore is giving Harry what he, Dumbledore, needs (and 
part of that is wanting to give Harry what he needs)--which is 
certainly formed by his own culture or understanding as everything 
is. But the idea that Dumbledore feels it's important to cut Harry's 
heroes down to size, etc., (as opposed to honestly explaining 
himself) is just as much a personal interpretation as my own view of 
what Dumbledore's saying. Perhaps JKR is taking that chance to guide 
us as to how we're supposed to feel about the situation. I'm not 
really sure there's supposed to be any gap between Dumbledore's 
culture/understanding and the readers. 

> > Magpie:
> > The danger's still there right now so he has to remind Harry 
that 
> he wasn't  a pampered Prince when he got to Hogwarts? So what I'm 
> getting here is that  Dumbledore really has issues with kids being 
> pampered--so much so that he does see that as a plus with the 
> Dursleys that he's pleased about.
> 
> Pippin:
> I agree with you about the issue. But it's a relevant issue, 
because
> the responsibility for seeing that Harry doesn't receive the 
pampered 
> prince treatment is now no longer  in Dumbledore's hands. Now
> that Harry knows he's the Chosen One, he could demand to be
> treated as such. Heck, he could threaten the Dursleys into it.
> And it still wouldn't be good for him.

Magpie:
This is one of the things I actually never get about the whole idea 
that Harry knowing about his fame would put him in danger of this 
kind of arrogance. Because the Dursleys' type upbringing holds just 
as much if not more danger for the same thing. If a kid grows up 
despised, and then suddenly finds out he's the Savior of the World, 
he would potentially be much more vulnerable to having his head 
turned by going from one extreme to another because his self-esteem 
is already screwed up. My instinct if somebody was asking me what I 
thought would be the best way would be to have the kid raised by 
people who didn't treat him special, but cared about him. That seems 
like the best bet for giving him a strong personality that can 
withstand sudden fame at age 11. That seems borne out by a lot of 
stories of child stars as well. 

Every kid is different, though, and obviously Harry was fine without 
getting that. But I'm still not getting how Dumbledore's bringing 
that up here somehow has to do with Harry. I don't see anything in 
the scene that would suggest he's warning Harry not to become a 
Pampered Prince now, or responding to any danger Harry will become 
one. Harry's not demanded to be treated like anything (and if he did 
people wouldn't have to give him what he wanted). If that is a real 
fear Dumbledore seems to me to be doing the opposite of dealing with 
it: he's complimenting Harry on his great character (telling him 
he's not a Pampered Prince, he's the best!) and acts like Harry's 
owed an explanation for not being given the Prefect position, as if 
he was right to feel entitled to it. That incident is a rare place 
in canon where Harry *is* treated like a normal kid, where his 
success or failure isn't part of any grand drama. The attention just 
goes to somebody else. Yet rather than let Harry deal with that like 
all other kids do, Dumbledore jumps in to assure him that it really 
was part of the drama, and of course Harry deserved it more.

-m