Dursleys or Death

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 164499

--- "Magpie" <belviso at ...> wrote:
>
> > bboyminn:
> >
> > ... Harry is who
> > he is 'inspite of his life at the Dursleys' rather
> > than because of it. That is, morally, Harry towers 
> > over the Dursleys, ...
> >
> > But I do believe buried in the misery of life at the
> > Durley's, it is impossible for Harry to NOT learn
> > valuable lessons from them. That experience has made
> > Harry a better person than he might have been because
> > Harry has a rational mind that can see through the
> > clutter of class, implied status, and false prestige.
> 
> Magpie:
> But I think this is very kind of romanticized cause and
> effect some of us have a problem with .... 
>

bboyminn:

Agreed, I am overly romanticizing this aspect of Harry's
life; downtrodden hero over coming adversity and all 
that. But I am doing this as a way of emphasizing an
aspect of the story that I am trying to highlight. In
general, I think Harry's life is far more tragic than 
romantic.


> Magpie:
>
> Living with the Dursleys really doesn't seem like a 
> lesson that leads to Harry learning that material 
> things aren't important or the meaning of true 
> friendship.
> 

bboyminn: 

Essentially, I am saying that Harry has a good BS
detector and he is able to see the Dursleys for the
frauds that they are. He learns lessons from the 
Durleys for sure, but the lessons he learn are not
because of the Dursely, those lessons come from Harry's
strength of character. Trust me I'm not trying to 
give the Dursleys any credit here. They are miserable
people. I'm giving credit to Harry for having the 
character to see through their BS and understand how
false and wrong they are. 

In a sense, by seeing, living, and feeling injustice,
Harry very clearly feels and empathizes with injustice
done to others. Again, that doesn't credit the Dursley,
but does credit Harry with being far more morally
and intellectually developed that they are. 

> Magpie:
>
> I also don't see Harry's problems with Draco as being 
> and liking Ron as a big sign of how well his upbringing
> has served him. Draco's just not as much of a test as 
> you're making him out. Harry hates Draco from the first
> time he suggests that he, like Dudley, ...

bboyminn:

Again, a slight misunderstanding, what I was saying was
not about Harry's relationship with or reaction to Draco.
It is about his relationship with and reaction to Ron. 
We are seeing Harry's BS detector in action, and it is 
no coincidence that Harry sees a bit of Dudley in Draco.

> Magpie:
>
>... There's just never a question of making any sort
> of close call about Draco for anybody or seeing the
> difference between Friend and friendly. 

bboyminn:

Agreed to a certain extent. But the aspect of the scene
that I am referring to, is why Harry did what he did.
Note my previous post -

"Ron in that first meeting with Harry seems totally 
sincere and honest; Draco on the other hand seems 
calculating and scheming. In the moment, Harry recognises
the difference between Friend and friendly, ..."

If Draco has been a little smoother and more sensitive,
Harry would have probably shook his hand out of common
courtesy even if he didn't have a favorable impression 
of him. I suspect part of the result of living with the
Dursleys is that Harry has learned not to make waves;
smooth conflict free sailing is alway the best path. 
But once Draco insulted Ron, Harry was left with no 
choice. 

The easiest and safest way out of the conversation was
to shake Draco's hand and be done with him, but Draco 
made it impossible to take that way out. Harry simply 
could not abide a 'Dudley-like' person insulting his 
only friend. Consequently, he soundly rejected Draco's
offer of 'friendly aquaintanceship'. 

Note, I say "friendly aquaintanceship" because it is 
clear, at least to me, that Draco's offer is a political
alliance and not true friendship. Calculating Draco
certainly intended to benefit from his relationship
with 'The Boy Who Lived'. Ron, on the other hand, was
offerring straight up no-strings-attached friendship.

Which choice do you think the Dursleys, especially Dudley,
would have chosen. I'm confident, Dudley would have 
dropped Ron like a hot potato, and struck up an alliance
that could do him some political and social good. The
Drusleys are calculating in that way. 


> Magpie:
>
> ... if Harry had grown up with James .... Hermione 
> makes the same judgments and also stands up for Neville.
> 
> I can't connect that to the Dursleys as if this is 
> the logical result of that in any significant way. ...
> 

bboyminn:

I'm not sure Harry would have the level of understanding
that he currently has if he had grown up with James as
an active father. I'm sure Harry would have grown up to
be a fine boy, but I'm not sure he would have had the
same sense of empathy for the outsider and the underdog. 

It is really impossible to say though, on one hand Lily
and James seem like fine people who are well respected
by all who knew them. But on the other hand, James seems
to have an agrogance that comes from growing up 
priviledge. It is possible, that Harry would have had 
that same sense of entitlement, and that may have drawn
him closer to Draco. Even so, I'm sure on some level
Harry would have understood that Draco was a player,
and would not have allowed himself to be /played/.
But would he have felt and shown the same compassion for
Neville or Luna? 

It's a tough call to make, but I think part of what 
allowed Harry to learn from the Dursleys is his own
strength of character and moral sense of right and
wrong. As I said, the Dursleys serve, in a sense, as
an anti-model for life. If you want to see everything
that is wrong with the modern world, just look at the
Dursleys. In that sense, Harry learned from them, but
he learned exactly the /opposite/ lessons they tried 
to teach him.

So, while I believe that Harry certainly learned a 
lot from his experience at the Dursleys, the Dursley
certainly deserve no credit for it. Harry learned 
a sense of justice by experiencing injustice and having
the personal fortitude to see the difference. Harry 
learned the falseness of social status, by living with
people whose who concept of social status was false. He
learned the value and perspective of material things,
by living with people who had absolutely NO perspective
on material things. 

So, yes, Harry has gained personally by living with the
Dursleys, but again, that gain comes from Harry's own
strength of character, intuitive sense of justice, and
his own fortitude and perseverance. The Dursleys were
simply the anti-model that re-enforced all those aspects.

I can see how Harry was hurt by living with the Dursleys.
I see negative aspects of his personality that are 
common to people who grow up in situations like that. But
I also see Harry's BS detector. As miserable and damaging
as his life there was, he knew with certainty that he was
right and they were wrong, and that knowledge carried him
through.

Yes, he learned and developed from living with the Dursleys
but that credit all falls on him, not on them. 

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn