Wanted! Complex Female Adult Character: (was:Re: ESE!McGonagall...

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 164711

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > So rather than a need for a "strong" female character, I guess    
> > I'm just looking for a *likable* one. 
> > <snip>

> >>zgirnius:
> I think you need to consider the possibility that your aesthetic 
> sensibilities and JKR's simply don't mesh in this area.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I have!  I really do wonder if it's just that JKR and I disagree 
on what makes a good and likable person.  And honestly, it might just 
be that simple.  It'll be too bad, because I'll have very little 
reason to reread or recommend the books, but thems the breaks.

It's just... I'm still not quite *sure*.  I mean, I do honestly 
recognize that Molly is much more nails on the chalkboard for me than 
for others.  But I still think JKR purposefully writes her as off-
putting at times.  (There's a reason JKR chose to have Molly annoy 
rather than soothe Harry before his big trial in GoF.)  

But are we (the readers) supposed to notice Hermione heading down a 
bad path?  Or does JKR think Hermione is doing great and nothing will 
change?  I don't know!  And it frustrates the heck out of me. <g>

It's interesting, because I've just read a story told by two very 
different narrators, and one is instantly very sympathetic, start to 
finish, you love him no matter what.  But the other narrator is so 
much more off-putting.  For one, he's mad through most of the story, 
but even when he gets himself together he's incredibly self-centered 
and even selfish.  But I recognize that this is *meant* to be off-
putting.  The narrator sees some (not all of course) of his issues 
and so there's a sense that he's got something more to offer and a 
change will occur.  So I'm quite willing to give him time to become 
likable (though I've read reviews where others weren't as patient).

With Hermione though, I worry that it's a waste of time.  This is who 
she is, because this is what JKR herself thinks is good.  So it 
prevents me (at this point) from becoming too invested, from hoping 
too much.  Probably a big part of it is that neither Hermione nor 
Harry nor Ron seem to see that there's a problem.  I mean if none of 
them think Hermione is getting a bit scary then what do I hang my hat 
on as hope that she'll improve?

> >>zgirnius:
> I consider McGonagall to be a member of the strong female          
> characters club. What's not strong about her?

Betsy Hp:
I think with McGonagall, it's not that she's not a person of strength 
(after all, she's the "strict but fair" teacher, can't be a weakling 
in that role <g>), but more that she's not a strong influence in 
Harry's life and therefore to the story.  So she's not a make or 
break part of the story like say, Sirius or Lupin are.

> >>zgirnius:
> Ditto Hermione, and Molly.

Betsy Hp:
Hermione is strong.  I think she's JKR's one exception.  My worry 
with Hermione goes back to likability.  I don't like Hermione (as she 
is now), don't admire her, etc.  So again, aesthetics, as you said.

I will admit that I'm always shocked when people say Molly is 
strong.  She can't even keep her own child from being thrown out of 
her home.  What's strong about that?  

[Frankly, IMO, Molly is the perfect example of the worst sort of 
female weakness: everything for a man who's no longer all that 
interested; sublimating all of her rage and choked ambition into 
cruel and meaningless mind games with the weakest of her offspring as 
a stand in for the man she's losing.  That most of it is subconscious 
makes her even more pathetic, IMO.  But that's just me, and I fully 
realize that I'm pretty much alone on this. <g>]

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>...I think because it would highlight Molly's weaknesses    
> > too much, fandom doesn't discuss Arthur with the same vigor they 
> > bring to Sirius or Lupin discussions.  

> >>zgirnius:
> I always thought this is because, unlike Molly, Arthur is boring.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Arthur is boring because he's almost never there.  Because Molly has 
driven him out of the house and he's too weak to fight his way back 
in.  No matter how his children suffer.  

But Arthur is one of the few characters who treats Harry as a 
thinking person in his own right (against Molly's wishes and behind 
her back, of course). And he has some strong principles (not shared 
by Molly) that I think the WW need to consider.  And, IMO, Arthur, 
delt the best with the Dursleys and may have been the only one to 
actually shame them (until the twins of course, Molly's little 
helpers).

So I do think there's something interesting there, along with 
something cripplingly weak.  Like the rest of the male cast. <g>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > So it all becomes a bit forced.  Lily is a Saint, McGonogall is   
> > the perfect "strict teacher", etc.  But neither of them *really* 
> > touch Harry's life, because they just aren't real.  They're      
> > plaster stand-ins, especially when compared to the guys.

> >>zgirnius:
> We can't even call Lily a plaster stand in.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I think Lily makes a perfect saintly figurine: perfect, 
untouchable, unknowable.  Better than any mere human could ever hope 
to be. 

> >>zgirnius:
> <snip>
> This is an area in which I really think it is premature to judge   
> Rowling before DH, because Lily is at the center of the biggest    
> mystery in the series (what happened in GH). We will be learning   
> more about her. What impact, if any, Harry's discoveries about her 
> will make on him remains unclear.

Betsy Hp:
You could well be right.  Though given how JKR has already handled 
Ginny, especially if we're supposed to take Ginny as done, I really 
do fear that we're going to be faced with an impossibly perfect woman 
who's only flaws are of the irreproachable kind, a slight temper with 
forces of evil, etc.

But, even if Lily does turn out to be a gift of a character, I almost 
wonder if she's not being shoved in a bit too late?  I mean, I'm all 
for leaving motherhood alone so we can tackle fatherhood.  Is JKR 
attempting to pile too much on her plate, I wonder?  Certainly 
there've been no Lily representatives as there've been James 
representatives.  (I think part of the reason the pensieve scene 
caused James to more click into place than thud is because of what we 
already knew about the Maraurders.)

And what I also wonder about is that Lily may be something that makes 
*Snape* more clear to both the readers and Harry.  So rather than 
revealing motherhood, we've again learned something about fatherhood.

Betsy Hp (I rearranged some of the post to aid the flow)