[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Lily & the Potions textbook

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164849

> Alla:
>
> Heee, you see Ceridwen, I knew there would be a right place to post
> what I was telling you yesterday.
>
> So, yeah, jumping in. I am not giving Lily Snape's brilliance in
> Potions - I am giving her her **own** brilliance in Potions and do
> not believe that it is taking from Snape's brilliance in Potions at
> all. Can't they be both talented? Or does Snape holds the title of
> the **only** genuis in Potions in Hogwarts? I personally do not
> think so, but I can be wrong of course.
>
> Slughorn praise of her is enough for me to believe that Lily was
> very talented at least, whether the notes in the book are hers or
> not.
>
> Now, about that taking away the irony that Harry identified with
> young Snape, if Lily wrote those.
>
> Absolutely, it will take away the irony, but who says that JKR is
> not going for that?

Magpie:
I think that Slughorn was perfectly serious when he said that Lily was good 
at Potions, and that this could be a connection she had to Snape. Snape 
could have admired Lily's Potions skill too.

What I don't see any evidence for is the leap that Slughorn says Lily was 
good at Potions means that Lily must be person good at Potions Harry learned 
from in HBP. That, to me, seems like an odd leap, and one that leads 
nowhere. Harry already knows Lily was good at Potions and has already been 
offered a bond with himself via that fact through Slughorn (who keeps 
chalking up Harry's own brilliance to that and reminding him how he has 
Lily's eyes and her cheek etc.).  It just doesn't interest in much.

Which doesn't mean that Lily can't be connected to the book. I mean, Harry's 
relationship with Lily has potential, but it's not yet in any way 
complicated. Harry thinks Lily's great and learning she was good at Potions 
and helped him at Potions doesn't really give him anything except that hey, 
Mum was good at Potions. People have talked about Harry learning that James 
was good at Transfigurations, but Harry had no interest in that whatsoever. 
He didn't care that James got good marks from McGonagall-and I doubt he'd 
think it was interesting that Lily happened to be the one to cast the 
Fidelius charm if she did. (He doesn't really care that James was good at 
Quidditch either, except in a mild way.)

What Harry cared about was what James did in more interesting ways with 
interesting people--that he Transfigured into an Animagus Stag to run with a 
werewolf that was his friend along with Sirius and Peter.

Likewise, Lily's being good at Potions isn't interesting in itself. Her 
being the "brain" behind some of the HBP's Potions ideas isn't interesting 
in itself either--Harry wasn't impressed by the Prince's skill at Potions, 
he bonded with his personality and the way he "helped" Harry cheat. What is 
interesting is if there was a relationship that effects Harry--like a 
relationships with the HBP.

Alla:
> It all depends on what one is banking would be the crucial emotional
> connection that would help Harry to win the final battle.
>
> If one thinks that the crucial connection would be Harry/Snape, then
> sure notes in the book have to be Snape's to make sure that Harry
> had at least one point when he sympathised with young Snape,
> etc,etc,etc.
>
> But if one hopes ( as I sure do) that crucial connection would not
> be Harry/Snape, but Harry/Lily, that Snape is a plot device big one,
> but plot device nevertheless, designed to teach Harry what kind of
> person he should not be, the forgiveness, etc.

Magpie:
Right. Harry and Lily don't need to "get to know each other" the way Harry 
got to know Snape through the book. It would mean something if Harry learned 
something from Lily that applied to his own emotional life. For instance, if 
Lily had a relationship with Snape that we'll learn about later (one for 
which the groundwork might have been laid in HBP via their shared Potions 
skill) that would mean something to Harry. That's a place where he can get 
to know Lily in a way that matters, and maybe model his behavior on her.

The turnaround of the personality of the HBP being Snape depended on the 
personality of Snape that Harry already knew and despised.

Alla:
 Then I do not see why
> as Cassie mentioned earlier notes supposedly belonging to Snape
> cannot be one giant red herring and the book will really tell Harry
> more about Lily, then of Snape.

Magpie:
But what does it tell Harry about Lily if those notes were hers? That she 
was snarky and somebody he would have liked? Who cares? He already likes 
her. He's already heard her be snarky. He's been told all year she was good 
at Potions and was cheeky. There's no barrier that Harry needs to get over 
with Lily to feel bonded to her. The HBP being Snape is a turnaround and 
dramatic--Harry's freaked out by the idea the person he came to think of as 
a friend was his most hated enemy. Finding out the person he came to think 
of was his friend is actually a person to whom he already feels far stronger 
emotions is just kind of...awww. That's nice. It's not a challenge the way 
that, say, James acting like a jerk was.

Lily having a relationship with Snape that wasn't wholly negative--that 
would be a challenge. Yet one Harry could understand since he himself *also* 
had a positive relationship to the Snape Lily would have known. He, too, has 
already defended Teen!Snape against others, so if that was something Lily 
did in the past Harry's got the groundwork laid to understand her in ways 
others didn't. That's something real to bond over or feel on the same 
wavelength about. Not that Mom was good at Potions, even if she was.
>
> Alla, thinks that Lily making those notes would have a layer of new
> and delightful irony.


m--who's probably explained thoroughly hear how she thinks Lily making those 
notes removes all irony and replaces it with a "mildly sweet, but doesn't 
say much" since Lily being the voice that Harry liked in HBP is no more 
ironic than James being the voice Harry liked in HBP.She's the type of 
person Harry thinks the voice *should* belong to, so isn't ironic. And in 
fact it seems to require a convenient dual personality for the HBP. Instead 
of being the complicated person whom Harry liked but had a dark side, he's 
comfortably split into the Dark Side being the guy he's always hated and the 
part he liked being somebody he loves.

-m (whose sig line was too long to really be considered a sig line!)