Back to The Plan (Was:Re: Father Figures)

[Annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 164961


> Carol earlier:
> > Still, in light of what actually did happen (and possibly the 
death
> of Sirius Black after all Lupin went through to prove him innocent 
to
> HRH), I can see why [Lupin would] be unhappy with himself. If only
> he'd just explained everything to Dumbledore in the first place. DD
> would have talked to Black, found out about Scabbers, had Pettigrew
> arrested, and Voldie would still be vapor. 
> > 
> > Annemehr, previously:
> > Well okay, but *if* DD would have wanted to *prevent* LV 
regaining a 
> > physical body, by preventing Pettigrew's escape, then why isn't 
LV a 
> > vapor *now,* when he so easily could be? <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> Sorry to be unclear. I was trying to present what I see as Lupin's
> perspective, his realization that his actions (and persistent
> inaction) in PoA had undesirable consequences.

Annemehr:
No, I understood you.  My point was to be that Lupin's perspective 
depends very much on what he understands about what happened that 
night.  If Wormtail's escape was *for the best,* then Lupin will not 
wish that he had done anything different.  You and I disagree on 
whether it *was* for the best, but we shall see in July.

(You have said in another thread that you prefer literary analysis to 
speculation.  Actually, so do I, but analysis is on shaky ground 
until we see exactly what's going on -- not that that is stopping us! 
<g>  Meanwhile, those of us who also enjoy a bit of speculation must 
take full advantage of the time left to us.)

<snip>

Carol: 
> I also really don't understand your question. Let me try to figure
> this out. You think that if Lupin had confided the truth to 
Dumbledore
> (which I think, or hope, he regrets not doing), that Dumbledore 
would
> have questioned Sirius Black (which I also think) and discovered the
> truth about Pettigrew. <snip> Of course, in terms of the story, 
especially
> GoF, Pettigrew's escape is absolutely essential. But why would
> *Dumbledore* want it to happen?

Annemehr:
My question was rhetorical.  I think Dumbledore knew the truth about 
Pettigrew all along.  I think that the fact that DD did not try to 
revaporize LV in the Ministry Atrium goes to support the idea that 
this particular re-embodiment of LV is *part* of DD's Plan (the plan 
which we see in ch. 37 of OoP existed at *least* as early as Harry's 
first year at Hogwarts, since he talks about his failure to tell 
Harry the prophecy *then* as a flaw in that plan).

Back to the question of Lupin's regrets again -- well, if he knows he 
facilitated the plan's proceeding, he will not have regrets per se.  
Sadness that there is a war at all, yes, but not regrets about his 
own actions.



> Carol:
> Why didn't Dumbledore vaporize LV in the MoM? (Not that the question
> has anything to do with my point on Lupin's possible regrets, but,
> okay. I'll answer.) As you say, he knew about the Horcruxes, but I
> don't think that's all there is to it. I *do* think DD is "above 
such
> brutality" since, unlike Harry, who can use Love, he'd have to use 
an
> Unforgiveable Curse to kill LV--but the attempt would be futile,
> anyway, since LV wouldn't be killed. DD also knows that it's Harry's
> job, not his, to destroy Voldemort. 

Annemehr:
Well, these are central questions!

First of all, I do not see what is so noble about killing LV with 
Love rather than Avada Kedavra.  Love is toxic to Voldemort.  Would 
it not be the moral equivalent to killing him with a poisoned kiss?  
To hugging the breath out of him?  Or, indeed, to just using an AK?

>From the Radio City Music Hall reading of 8/1/06:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
J.K. Rowling: Well, I believe that almost anyone can redeem 
themselves. However, in some cases, as we know from reality -- if a 
psychologist were ever able to get Voldemort in a room, tape him 
down, take his wand away, I think he would be classified as a 
psychopath (crowd laughs). So there are people for whom redemption is 
not possible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

So, redemption is not possible for LV.  He is a psychopath who 
*cannot* love.  If Harry exposes him forcefully to Love, there is *no 
choice* available to LV to repent and accept it, and so to live; love 
to him is an instrument of torture or an agent of his death.

And don't anyone tell me this series is "all about choices."  This is 
how LV is written.

As for it being Harry's job to destroy Voldemort, I say we still 
don't know why that is.  Not *really.*  Not beyond the fact that we 
know this is a story about how Harry will in fact deal with him.  
Even though, yes, we can see that having a mind link to LV (when it's 
open), being a Parselmouth, and most likely having the power of 
Possession would confer certain *advantages*.  I say that even though 
I've posited before that Harry will vanquish LV in a battle of wills 
via mutual possession.  It still doesn't tell us why it must *only* 
be Harry.

But Dumbledore certainly seems to know why -- and he's built his 
plans around it.


<snip>
 
> Carol:
> Oh, I think there's a plan all right, but it mostly involves Harry 
and
> Snape, but it could have been implemented later and more effectively
> if Wormtail had not escaped, ending the respite the WW had enjoyed
> since Godric's Hollow. I don't see collateral deaths as part of the
> plan. Instead, they're an unfortunate consequence of Voldie's return
> to his body, which DD can't undo without starting the process over
> again. Now, at least, Fudge and the WW know what they're facing if
> Voldemort is not destroyed. Unfortunately, thanks to Wormtail's
> escape, they, and Harry, are facing those consequences years or even
> decades sooner than they might have done if Lupin had only told DD
> what he knew about Sirius Black. (And no. I'm not blaming Lupin for
> the unforeseen consequences of his unfortunate actions and 
inactions.
> If I blame anybody, it's Voldie for casting the DADA curse.)

Annemehr:
Well, the collateral deaths are part of the *cost* of having LV be 
corporeal at this time.  It is a huge cost, so there must be a huge 
reason for DD to have it so.

I don't see how revaporising LV would add more to anyone's knowledge 
of the Hxes than they could have now.  It's just more of the same, 
not new information.  That can't be the reason to leave LV in his 
current body.

The fact that you say "Instead, [the collateral deaths are] an 
unfortunate consequence of Voldie's return to his body, which DD 
can't undo without starting the process over again." implies that the 
*process*, i.e. the return of LV to that *particular* body, is 
essential to the defeat of Voldemort.  Which in turn implies that it 
is, in fact, part of the Plan.  Otherwise, DD could arrange for the 
destruction of the Hxes while Britain enjoyed a time of peace (and LV 
another sojourn in Albania), and then destroy the remaining part of 
LV by some *other* hypothetical process.

And, Jen R., if you're reading this, this also serves as my reply to 
your post #164806.  The fetal body is something we know next to 
nothing about, but it doesn't pose any problem for Guilty!DD.  It is 
a part of this process I believe was planned.

So again: why didn't DD vaporise LV in the Ministry, even though it 
would have prevented the current war and consequent deaths of 
innocents?  Because DD knows that doing so would have an even higher 
price -- and the *only* way he could know that is by knowing how LV 
is to be finally dealt with, i.e. the Plan.

 
> Carol:
> Even if DD wanted Wormtail to escape as you suggest, how could he
> possibly have known that Wormtail, regarded by everyone as hopeless 
at
> magic, could possibly restore Voldemort to physical form? He hadn't
> heard Trelawney's second prophecy, which didn't occur until the 
night
> before Wormtail's escape. And until that night, DD, like everyone
> else, thought that PP was dead and that Sirius Black was his 
murderer.

Annemehr:
How could DD possibly know Wormtail could restore LV?  Because he 
knew every bit as well as LV did, what would be required to 
accomplish the job: some specific magical knowledge, and a hand to 
wield a wand. That prophecy is completely superfluous to this 
question.  And, we see that Wormtail is not "hopeless" at magic after 
all, and he had LV's instructions to follow.  Why, DD even told 
Harry, Ron, and thus Scabbers, at the end of Cos, that LV was 
currently hiding out in Albania -- so Wormtail even knew just where 
to look for rat friends to point out the way to his Master.

Furthermore, DD wasn't reading the Hangleton papers for the personal 
ads, you know.

And no, I'm sure he knew that Pettigrew was alive, just as he knew 
Sirius was innocent.

> Carol, who never dreamed that her suggestion about Lupin's possible
> regrets would spawn a Guilty!DD thread!

You just never know, do you? <veg>

Annemehr