Bathroom scene again WAS: Re:Weasley Family Dynamics/To t...

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165017

> 
> Alla:
> 
> I have not noticed Harry wanting to attack when Draco used 
> Unforgivable, in fact I have noticed him one of those harmless 
hexes 
> at first and quite harmless as second and only as last attempt the 
> one marked for enemies. IMO of course.

Magpie:
I think Carol answered a lot of the things raised in her own post, 
but I do think this issue is a sticking point in the scene as well. 
I think the scene has some deliberate ambiguity that's set up 
throughout the book(s) and if the whole thing is a simple oopsie 
where the violence caused in no way says anything to or about Harry 
at all I wonder why the author's chose this bizarre spell (this 
spell and Levicorpus seeming to hold certain significance in terms 
of their creator's motives in making them). Saying he only uses 
the "for enemies" spell as a last attempt seems to suggest exactly 
this, that Harry knew he was pulling out something *serious*. If he 
thought it was just a self-defense spell or a light spell that 
wasn't that harmful why would it be something he'd only use when 
pushed to it? Claims that Harry fears not only what his own 
experience with Crucio has taught him but lifelong dementia seems be 
about justifying the deadly force, yet it's also important that 
Harry did not intend to use force.

Unlike in other fights they've had Harry is not furious and obsessed 
with hurting Malfoy--but it's still Malfoy. Not hurting him isn't a 
priority and he's got years of hatred under his belt. He wasn't 
planning on slicing him open, but afterwards, I would imagine it 
would be very difficult to explain to himself just what he *thought* 
he was throwing in that moment that made him reach for that unknown 
curse, and what he wanted. How far was he willing to go to get 
Malfoy off his back, if not that far? 

Later he's vaguely aware that he's got some issues of conscience 
somewhere for some reason, that he's not examining. What's the point 
of those twinges of conscience if this scene is purely about self-
defense? It's not like Harry's usually has trouble with guil after 
fights. On the contrary, he usually feels okay with what he did. So 
why does he feel a bit squirmy now? Especially with Malfoy up and 
about, good as new? (As we know from Ron--Harry, who's been obsessed 
with him all year, makes no note of Malfoy's return to classes.) He 
seems to feel like he did something wrong, so what does he think he 
did wrong? I don't actually think "choosing the wrong spell" covers 
it, because I can't see why Harry wouldn't be open about that. 

He relates to Sectumsempra from the time he's read it as an 
offensive spell to use on people he doesn't like ("enemies"). I 
don't think in the split second when he's on the floor he has time 
to rethink the meaning of enemies into people who might be attacking 
him and so the spell isn't aggressive. Harry really understands the 
Prince well and has a "relationship" with him--I don't think their 
relationship is marked by this kind of naivite on Harry's part. 
Ginny compares it briefly to her own experience with a book in CoS, 
but Harry correctly sees this is not the same. He's not innocent 11-
year-old Ginny being played by Tom Riddle.

It would surprise me if JKR wrote a scene for her 16-year-old heroic 
protagonist who's great power is love--a scene in the running for 
the most gruesome and violent scene in all of canon--expecting the 
violence to mean nothing. Carol's post points out all the important 
things that come out of this scene--yet also notes that none of them 
have to do with the violence or Harry's thoughts about using Dark 
Magic himself. And also I'd note that HBP has a lot of unintended 
violence in it--I think that's one of the themes, actually.

So that's why in answer to questions like "what if Harry had just 
used a stupefy and Draco had fallen and gotten hurt" just make me 
say: why *didn't* Harry (or why didn't JKR make Harry) stupefy 
Draco? For that matter, why not have Harry use Levicorpus, another 
spell that comes from the Prince's book and has similar associations 
in canon. That, too, could have led Snape to figure out that Harry 
had his book. He could still be brought to the bathroom by the sound 
of fighting. Harry didn't consciously use Dark Magic, but he did use 
the right spell in the right situation, which he knew by reading the 
Prince's note on its use. And he's using it on a character he's 
hated for years, who has driven him to violence before. 

It also seems important for the HBP story. Why does Harry feel such 
an understanding with the Prince? It seems to me one of the things 
going on is that Snape and Harry have things in common, including 
things that led to Snape's own use of violent spells. This incident 
doesn't destroy his relationship with the Prince--that takes the 
revelation that the Prince is Snape.

wynnleaf:
Since I doubt that JKR wants us to think Harry was willing to use a
deadly spell against McClaggen, I think we have to assume that Harry
used Sectumsempra rather stupidly -- not choosing it because he
thought it would likely be an excellent spell to use against someone
casting an unforgiveable, but just using it because he'd been going
around with it on his mind (to use the next chance McClaggen turned
his back).

Magpie:
I somewhat disagree. Harry has no idea the spell is deadly, but 
there are no spells that are obviously an excellent spell to use 
against someone casting an Unforgivable--except a spell that's 
purely defensive and sheilds you from the Unforgivable. Anything 
beyond that is presumably punishment.

For me this goes back to the imo important understanding between 
Harry and the Prince. I got the impression that when he's just read 
the spell he's hoping to "try it out" on McLaggen to see what it 
does, because McLaggen is disliked by him enough to be a satisfying 
guinea pig. He does assume that it doesn't kill--but then, the spell 
doesn't kill. Had he just tried it out on McLaggen the way he was 
planning it wouldn't have been deadly at all, most likely. The 
reason it's deadly on Malfoy is in large part due to Harry's own 
state of mind.

wynnleaf:
So basically what this scene shows us about Harry is that he had this
Sectumsempra spell in his head, that he had no clue what it would do,
but he didn't think it any more nasty than a nail-growing hex. He
used it against Draco, not as some strategic tactic against an
unforgiveable, but because it was a spell he'd had on his mind.

Magpie:
He doesn't have the spell on his mind throughout the fight with 
Draco, since he doesn't use it. He uses it, imo instinctively, in 
the way he's been instructed to use it--"for enemies." Not for 
pranks against annoying people like all the other spells in the 
book. It's not there in the book with other fun hexes like nail 
growing spells. It's there with a specific, dark note: For enemies. 
I think Harry understands as well as I, an average reader, did that 
this was more than a Prank spell. If JKR wanted to write it as all 
about Harry being shocked that the spell was actually dark, I don't 
think she'd have had young!Snape helpfully identify the spell 
as "for enemies." It could just have been yet another spell Harry 
read the word for, the last one in the book he hadn't tried. 

I think this is definitely something Harry would be asking himself, 
at least, and can never know the answer to, importantly, at least 
not until he seriously analyzes his own feelings.

wynnleaf:
Arguments about how justified Harry was to use a deadly spell that
Harry himself thought was fine to use against McClaggen make little
sense. Harry himself didn't try to justify his actions to Snape or
McGonagall, therefore neither teacher had the slightest reason to
attempt to sort through whether he had any good excuse.

Magpie:
There I definitely agree. No one in canon considers this an issue at 
all. Harry isn't trying to defend himself by saying he did it in 
self-defense (nobody's accusing him of otherwise), but he's not 
keeping in a secret either. His friends know what happened, and they 
don't unanimously think this is the most important thing. Actually, 
it's kind of interesting what different things they focus on. 
Ginny's the only person who takes this position, which makes Harry 
happy, but does not keep him from feeling squirmy about it later.

-m