Seeing gray in a black and white book/Free passes to characters

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 165084

> Betsy Hp:
> (Just a clarification point: did you mean *dis*agree in that first 
> sentence?  Because I'd actually say that Snape is one of the most 
> scrutinized characters in the Potter-verse.)
> 
> I guess I just wonder whose posts you're laughing at.  Who has ever 
> given Snape a "free pass" at teaching tactics or the murder of 
> Dumbledore?  Has *anyone* while discussing Snape said that his 
> various actions just plain don't count and shouldn't be looked at 
> all?  I don't recall anyone doing so.

Alla:

I do, plenty of times, but we may have different definitions of what 
it means to give character free pass. But read on.

Betsy Hp:
> Taking myself, I am on one side of the extreme in that I think 
Snape 
> is actually a very good teacher (one of Hogwarts' best, IMO) and 
that 
> he enjoys his job.  (This isn't a popular position, even amongst 
> Snape lovers. <g>) But even given that, I *do* see times where 
Snape, 
> as a teacher, either makes a mistake or lets his emotions (anger 
> usually) get the best of him.  I just don't think he's abusive and 
I 
> don't think he should be strung up by his toe-nails.  Is that what 
is 
> meant by a "free pass"?

Alla:

Depends. If your general position that he is a very good teacher of 
Harry and Neville, then yes, I absolutely think that you are giving 
him a free pass on multiple bad things he did to those boys. On the 
other hand, if your position is that he **is** a jerk, just not 
necessarily abuser ( sort of less extreme sort of badness), I can see 
that and will not call that giving him a free pass. I will just 
disagree with you :)

You can tell me that you do not consider those things to be bad, but 
sorry, there are just some things that to me  are bad, period.
Like hating the child because he reminds you of his dead father, I am 
going to be insisting that it is horrible whether one considers it as 
such or not.

Look, again, those are just opinions obviously and I understand you 
disagree that Snape is given free pass, I hope I was clear why I 
consider it to be so.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, but this sort of "excusing" or handing out of free passes 
> generally only happens with the good guys.  It's going on with the 
> bathroom scene discussion right now.  Instead of agreeing that, yes 
> slicing someone open is not a good thing to do, folks are trying to 
> say "well it's a bad thing, but since it's Harry I'm cool with 
it".  

Alla:

Nope, **it's a bad thing, but I am okay with that, because I see it 
as self defense and would see it as self defense no matter who would 
be involved**


Betsy Hp: 
> I have *not* seen that happen with Snape.  If it's the Tower no one 
> (that I've seen) has said "murdering Dumbledore was wrong, but 
since 
> it's Snape, I'm cool with it".  Some folks say he had no choice, 
> others say, he didn't actually kill Dumbledore, and others say, he 
> killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's own orders.  But that's not the 
> same as saying murder is fine especially since it's Snape.

Alla:

Well, we had been reading different posts and we do have different 
definitions of what it means to give a free pass. To me - give free 
pass means absolve **any** character of responsibility for what he 
did.

Seriously, would you like me to send you posts absolving Snape of 
**any** responsibility for what happened on the Tower?

It is either as I said upthread:

1. All Dumbledore's fault because he demanded that Snape killed him 
for Dumbledore's plan to come true.

2. Snape should have saved himself first and foremost, because 
Dumbledore is useless and Snape is useful as a spy ( then UV comes as 
a reason Snape should have saved himself)

Basically, to me giving character free pass means that he is not 
responsible for what he did.

And in the book where author stresses how bad murder is, to say that 
Snape is not responsible for the murder, yes, to me that means to 
give character a free pass, absolutely it does.

 
> Betsy Hp:
> Well first off, I completely disagree that Snape doesn't get 
> scrutinized.  Goodness, how often to we get folks signing off 
with "I 
> hate Snape discussions!" tags?  Too often, IMO! <g>

Alla:

Sure, I should have said Snape  gets approval of his actions.


Betsy Hp: 
> But I do agree that there's a lack of equality in the judgement of 
> characters.  The good guys can do something completely cowardly and 
> ignoble (like say, an adult attacking a child because he doesn't 
like 
> what that child's father just said, yes I'm looking at you Hagrid) 
> and everyone talks about how gosh darn funny it was.  And a bad guy 
> can make the noble decision to not kill an unarmed opponent (Draco 
> vs. Dumbledore on the Tower) and suddenly it means the non-killer 
is 
> a coward.

Alla:

Draco? Made a noble decision on the Tower?