Bathroom Scene - A Different Perspective/ Now with LONG quote.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165148

Alla earlier:
> > > 
> > > Pretend? I would say that assumption that Harry was horrified
that he would become insane after knowing what he was tortured at
Graveyard and what happened to Longbottoms has more canon support that
he was not.
> > > 
Julie responded:
> > This seems a bit ingenuous to me. Where does it ever seem that
Harry is the least bit afraid of Draco? And why would Harry equate
Draco, whom he's just found crying in the bathroom, with Voldemort or
the Death Eaters who tortured the Longbottoms? <snip>
> > 
> > I think Harry knew Draco's intent was to temporarily hurt him, not
to drive him insane or kill him. And Harry attacked right back,
understandably not wanting to experience that hurt, and wanting to
turn Draco's attempt to hurt back on him. Only it turned out that
Harry's intent and what actually happened weren't in sync. That's what
threw him, what scared him, and what he sincerely regretted. And good
for him.
> >
Alla responded:
> 
> Sorry, Julie. It does not seem one bit ingenuious to me.**Never**
before Draco attacked Harry with Unforgiveable ( stakes went up for 
him, just as he never before planned assasination)
> 
> As to why Harry would equate Draco with Voldemort? Eh, because they
 threw the same Unforgiveable? Is Harry supposed to know that in the 
hands of Draco the Unforgiveable would not have that nasty effect?
<snip>

Carol now:
I agree to some extent with both of you. I'm not sure that Draco could
have thrown an effective Crucio given his state of mind, but Harry,
who's pretty sure that Draco is now a Death Eater and has experienced
a Crucio firsthand, can hardly be expected to think in those terms.
His first instinct should have been to throw a DADA spell, but as Alla
says, Draco has just raised the stakes by trying to throw an
Unforgiveable, and it's not surprising that he unthinkingly bellows,
"SECTUMSEMPRA" or desperately waves his wand around, not knowing what
the curse does. However, with the first burst of blood, he ought to
have stopped, realizing exactly what "for enemies" meant. And
certainly, he's horrified as soon as he realizes what he's done--to
his credit, as Julie says.

So, yes, it's self-defense, and yes, he's attacking back to avoid
being hurt, assuming (rightly or wrongly) that DE!Draco can cast a
full-fledged Crucio and not just a few seconds' worth of pain
resulting from his own anger at having been caught off-guard in a weak
moment by an enemy. But I'm pretty sure that what Harry is
anticipating is not insanity but torture. He has survived several
Crucios, none of which has driven him insane. He's seen Bellatrix
herself, one of the four whose sadistically prolonged Crucios produced
insanity in Neville's parents, Crucioing Neville, who also was not
driven insane. 

Let's look at Harry's thoughts when he's actually being Cruciod in GoF
and HBP:

"The pain was so intense, so all-consuming, that he no longer knew
where he was. White-hot knives were piercing every inch of his skin,
his head was surely going to burst with pain, he was screaming more
loudly than he'd ever screamed in his life" (GoF Am. ed. 661).

That's what he has actually experienced (twice) at the hands of
Voldemort, and it's what he surely anticipates at the hands of Draco.
The fact that Draco is a kid like himself, distraught over the task
he's faced with and furious at being discovered in tears, doesn't
enter his mind. Draco at that moment is an enemy trying to Crucio him,
so the unknown spell labeled "for enemies" pops into his mind. It's
not a rational decision, nor is it the "right" decision just because
it's Harry's decision (he himself is horrified by his actions, as he
would not have been if he'd Stupefied Draco), but it's wholly
understandable given his frame of mind. But to say that he anticipates
driven insane, as opposed to the excruciating pain for which Crucio is
named is, I think, pushing things a bit too far.

Granted, when he thinks that Snape is Crucioing him (even after Snape
stops the Crucio, he doesn't fully register what has happened), he
anticipates death or madness from the pain:

"But before he could finish this jinx, excruciating pain hit Harry.;
he keeled over in the grass. Someone was screaming; he would surely
die of this agony, Snape was going to torture him to death or
madness--" (HBP 603).

Harry is wrong on all counts, of course. He doesn't die, he isn't
driven mad, and it isn't Snape who's torturing him. But this reaction
occurs after he sees Snape kill Dumbledore on the tower and is colored
by his perception of that event. I doubt very much that he thought
*Draco* would kill him or drive him mad. But he didn't doubt that
Draco could successfully cast a Crucio that would cause him to suffer
excruciating pain. After all, the purpose of a Cruciatus Curse (surely
the worst of the Unforgiveables because its use is *never* justified)
is to torture. It has no other purpose. The insanity of the
Longbottoms is the result of the unnaturally extended use of the
curse, not its ordinary use, which is to inflict pain as punishment or
to instill fear. Harry grants such a motive to Snape in HBP, but even
when Voldemort is actually torturing him in GoF, he only anticipates
that his head will burst from pain, not that he'll be driven mad.

HBP quoted:
<snip>

> "No one can help me," said Malfoy. His whole body was shaking. "I 
> can't do it. ... I can't. ... It won't work . . . and unless 1 do it 
> soon ... he says he'll kill me. ..." 
> 
> And Harry realized, with a shock so huge it seemed to root him to 
> the spot, that Malfoy was crying — actually crying — tears streaming 
> down his pale face into the grimy basin. Malfoy gasped and gulped 
> and then, with a great shudder, looked up into flu-cracked mirror 
> and saw Harry staring at him over his shoulder. 
> 
> Malfoy wheeled around, drawing his wand. Instinctively, Harry pulled 
> out his own. Malfoy's hex missed Harry by inches, shattering the 
> lamp on the wall beside him; Harry threw himself sideways, thought 
> Levicorpus! and flicked his wand, but Malfoy blocked the jinx and 
> raised his wand for another — 
> 
> "No! No! Stop it!" squealed Moaning Myrtle, her voice echoing loudly 
> around the tiled room. "Stop! STOP!" 
> 
> There was a loud bang and the bin behind Harry exploded; Harry 
> attempted a Leg-Locker Curse that backfired off the wall be­hind 
> Malfoy's ear and smashed the cistern beneath Moaning Myr­tle, who 
> screamed loudly; water poured everywhere and Harry slipped as 
> Malfoy, his face contorted, cried, "Cruci —" 
> 
> "SECTUMSEMPRA!" bellowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand 
> wildly. 
> 
> Blood spurted from Malfoy's face and chest as though he had been 
> slashed with an invisible sword. He staggered backward and collapsed 
> onto the waterlogged floor with a great splash, his wand falling 
> from his limp right hand. 
> 
> "No —" gasped Harry. 
> 
> Slipping and staggering, Harry got to his feet and plunged toward 
> Malfoy, whose face was now shining scarlet, his white hands 
> scrabbling at his blood-soaked chest. 
> 
> "No — I didn't —" 
> 
> Harry did not know what he was saying; he fell to his knees beside 
> Malfoy, who was shaking uncontrollably in a pool of his own blood. 
> Moaning Myrtle let out a deafening scream: "MURDER! MURDER IN THE 
> BATHROOM! MURDER!" 
> 
> The door banged open behind Harry and he looked up, terrified: Snape 
> had burst into the room, his face livid. Pushing Harry roughly 
> aside, he knelt over Malfoy, drew his wand, and traced it over the 
> deep wounds Harry's curse had made, muttering an incantation that 
> sounded almost like song. The flow of blood seemed to ease; Snape 
> wiped the residue from Malfoy's face and repeated his spell. Now the 
> wounds seemed to be knitting. 
> 
> Harry was still watching, horrified by what he had done, barely 
> aware that he too was soaked in blood and water. Moaning Myrtle was 
> still sobbing and wailing overhead. When Snape had performed his 
> countercurse for the third time, he half-lifted Malfoy into a 
> standing position. 
><snip>
> 
> It did not occur to Harry for a second to disobey. He stood up 
> slowly, shaking, and looked down at the wet floor. There were 
> bloodstains floating like crimson flowers across its surface.
<snip>

> "I didn't mean it to happen," said Harry at once. His voice echoed 
> in the cold, watery space. "I didn't know what that spell did." 

Carol:
What I see here is Harry unthinkingly using an unknown spell against a
boy he considers an enemy, a boy desperate enough to use Crucio
against him, and regretting it afterwards. Had he known that it was
Dark magic capable of causing his opponent, even DE!Draco to bleed to
death, he would not have used it.

(BTW, Mike, please note the word "countercurse" in the quoted text. I
still say it's extermely lucky for both boys that Snape, and only
Snape, was following Draco.)

Magpie:
> <SNIP>
>  Only the Longbottoms sufferred longterm damage from Crucio, and
that was an extended session, much as Obliviate charms are used 
frequently and are even considered harmless, but cause brain damage if
used too much over a short time.

Alla:
> 
> Since Longbottoms are the **only** victims of longterm Crucio I seem
to remember in canon, I'd say they are supposed to be an example of
what happens, not an exception to the rule. IMO of course.
> 
Carol:
Magpie is right. Crucio caused brain damage only in this one
exceptional instance, an unnaturally prolonged Crucio by four DEs
against two people. Harry knows from firsthand experience that a
short-term Crucio, even when cast by Voldemort himself, causes pain
only until the spell is lifted. Intense, horrific pain, yes. But not
insanity. The Longbottoms are the exception, not the rule.

Carol, not placing blame on Harry, whose desperate act is regrettable
but understandable, just saying that Harry's supposed fear of insanity
in this instance has no basis in canon