Voldemort learning the prophecy?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165219

Re: Voldermort learning the prophecy?

Jen wrote:
> > So...what's up for the prophecy in DH?
> >
> > I was a little surprised when Voldemort gave up on figuring it out
in HBP. Given Voldemort's obsessive nature and utter belief in the
prophecy, I'm guessing he will seek it out again in the belief there's
something about why Harry thwarts him at every turn. At least I think
that's what JKR is going for, that even though Harry continues to
escape Voldemort by love LV underestimates that power and therefore
will continue to believe there's more to Harry.

<SNIP>

> > Since Voldemort knows Trelawney is the Seer in question you'd
think he would make an *attempt* to get to her <snip>. Even if she
wasn't kidnapped out of the Vanishing Cabinent the tower night, it
makes sense to me LV turned his focus to removing Dumbledore first in
order to clear the way to Harry and possibly Trelawney (and who knows,
maybe a Horcrux hidden at Hogwarts?).

Carol responds:

I agree that we haven't seen the last of Trelawney (who, IMO, has one
more Prophecy to deliver: these things usually come in threes). but I
don't see how she could have been kidnapped through the Vanishing
Cabinet. That plan was all about getting DEs into Hogwarts so that
Draco could be forced to kill Dumbledore (or die trying). Trelawney
just happened to get in Draco's way (and was prevented from telling
her story to Dumbledore by Harry's reaction to the eavesdropping
revelation). I see a plot to kidnap Trelawney, who's no doubt still
holed up in her attic room (her not being mentioned as attending DD's
funeral doesn't mean she wasn't there) as a reason for Voldemort to
infiltrate Hogwarts in DH, along with retrieving any Horcruxes that
might be hidden there or holding any staff or students who happen to
be there hostage. A certain rat Animagus we all know and hate still
knows all the passages into Hogwarts, including one that's blocked to
humans but not to rats and probably is not being watched.
>
> SSSusan:
> Okay, then maybe it wasn't stupidity. :) Maybe Voldemort *has* had a
plan to get to the prophecy via Trelawney, but he just wanted to get
DD out of the way first. That would be a good plan!
>
> I'm not sure quite WHY I don't think we're going to see a return to
his quest to get his hands on the prophecy, but I just don't "feel" it
coming. (Not that that means much that *I'm* not feeling a
premonition, heh.) Maybe it's just the way JKR dropped the whole thing
for the entire 6th book? Maybe it's that I can't imagine how he
wouldn't figure it all out (that it's about Love) if he does hear it.
Maybe it's that we have -- JKR has caused us to -- switched our focus
towards those horcruxes and wondering so much about how that's all
going to play out.
>
> But it would certainly be interesting if Voldy has been working on a
long-range plan... getting DD out of his way, getting to Trelawney,
maybe even retrieving a Horschow hidden at Hogwarts, as you mentioned.
> <SNIP>
>
Carol responds:
I agree that the Prophecy was largely dropped in HBP except for the
revelation that Snape was the eavesdropper and DD's near-dismissal of
the whole thing, but I think it's more or less on hold. Certainly,
Snape's role as eavesdropper is going to be clarified and JKR's
"careful wording" will be less ambiguous than it is now. I doubt that
Voldemort has lost interest in the Prophecy, and Trelawney has been
under Dumbledore's protection all these years despite his
disinclination to continue having her subject taught at Hogwarts for a
reason. She also has an unusually high profile in HBP for a staff
member who's no longer Harry's teacher. (She's not quite the old fraud
he thinks she is, either, if her card readings are any indication.)

In OoP, BTW, the Prophecy was largely a plot device used by Dumbledore
to stall and preoccupy Voldemort (to keep him focused on it rather
than a bid for power) and on JKR's to bring in Occlumency and the
supposed rescue mission to the MoM. It may serve a similar but less
central role in DH as a reason for Voldemort to kidnap Trelawney.

> Jeremiah:
> <snip>
> Yes, going after her would be a fantastic idea but, as we know from
PoA, she doesn't recall these trance-like-states. I believe she is
totally unaware of her "gift" and I think it would be very difficult
for her to be tortured to tell LV or his Death Eaters about it. Since
she has no memory I would assume it cannot be extracted, since eh has
not "thoughts" about it I would also think you cannot look into her
head and see anything about it. <snip>

Carol responds:
I'm not so sure that an extracted memory would be useless, assuming
that Voldemort has access to a Pensieve. As we know from "Snape's
Worst Memory" and JKR's remarks in an interview, a Pensieve memory is
an objective record of the remembered event and contains elements that
the person owning the memory was not aware of at the time, for
example, the Marauders' conversation, which Severus, some distance
away and absorbed in his exam questions did not hear, but which his
unconscious mind nevertheless stored away. So a person who entered
Trelawney's memory via a Pensieve would hear her Prophecy in its
entirety even though she herself does not remember it. (It's possible
that a visit to Snape's or Aberforth's memory would produce a similar
result, but I'm not sure. Could a visitor to the memory hear the
Prophecy through the closed door above the commotion outside? Would
they be able to go through the closed door and witness the Trelawney/
Dumbledore interview?)

Jeremiah:
> What I mean about furthering the prophecy by furtherin Trelawney's
character is this: DD told Harry that Harry believes in the prophecy
too much. However, Trelawney claims she repeatedly told DD about the
readings (with the Lightning Struck Tower and his impending doom) and
he didn't put any faith in them but he still ended up pon the top of a
tower and died. Putting faith in or lacking faith in a prophecy
doesn't seem to change it, IMO. But, with Harry's prophecy we do not
have a clear outcome, just that "one cannot live while the other
survives" and that kind of thing but I do think that Trelawney's
Prophecy should not be ignored to any extent by Harry or the others.
it's decision-time for Harry. Does he find Trelawney to be
trustworthy and does he recognize her abilities? (Or, does she even
have any direct imput to the plot anymore nad we never see her again?)
>
Carol:
I think her appearances in HBP foreshadow additional appearances in
HBP, whether Harry believes in the Prophecy or not. (I wonder, BTW,
whether the misty-eyed Luna, who seemed to be a favorite of
Trelawney's and is the antithesis in every way of the rational,
book-oriented Hermione, will end up as a Seer in her own right.) As
you say, she was right about the Lightning-Struck Tower. I don't think
that Dumbledore ignored her because he disbelieved her warnings; he
knew that Draco was trying to kill him and clearly tried to thwart any
attempts to bring DEs into Hogwarts by placing new spells and watching
the passageways, overlooking only the Vanishing Cabinet in the RoR
(unfortunately). Just as he told Harry that nothing Harry told him
regarding the Snape/Draco conversation gave him cause for concern, he
already knew, IMO, that disaster was pending, including his own
possible or probable death, and he was planning accordingly all year,
from the hiring of Snape as DADA professor to the visit to the
Dursleys' and all those Pensieve visits and lessons with Harry. He
didn't need Trelawney's warnings, and he might even have considered it
to be to Trelawney's advantage not to be fully aware of her own gifts
(and her consequent danger).

At any rate, I'll be very surprised if we don't see Trelawney again. I
predict that she'll play a small but important role in DH (far more
intersting than those accursed Horcruxes).

Carol the Far-Sighted (literally), who predicts that Snape will either
give Trelawney the Draught of Living Death after kidnapping and
pretending to kill her or rescue her in front of Harry, delightfully
overthrowing all his expectations

P.S. I really, really hope that I've gotten out all the typos and
stupid errors this time and hope I haven't confused everybody with all
my revised versions!