Was Harry cheating at Potions (was:Re: Bathroom Scene - A Different Perspective.

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 165246

Mike:
> Ron got a used book from the same cupboard, was he cheating? What 
if Ron's had additional notes that proved to be worse than the text's 
instructions, would Ron be cheating if he used those notes? Or is it 
only if your book has notes that improve your performance are you 
considered a cheater? IOW, just because Harry's used book was more 
useful than Ron's does not make Harry a cheater. And it is clearly 
legal for Harry or anybody to have a used book.

Ceridwen:
The Ron example you give is the ideal reason why a student shouldn't 
use notes in a used book.  This was illustrated nicely by the spells 
in the HBP's book.  User-friendly, funny spells, then, Sectum Sempra.

Of course Ron would be cheating if he used those notes!  The only 
difference between Ron's hypothetical notes and Harry's actual notes 
is that Ron would reap the punishment from using them immediately.  
Harry reaped the punishment months later, after he hid the Prince's 
book and had to use an ordinary textbook.  As others have pointed 
out, he didn't understand why the improvements worked.  If he would 
have used the notes, explored why they worked, and learned something 
from them, then I would be much less inclined to say he outright and 
shamelessly cheated.

Though, thinking about it, why would notes in a NEWT-level Potions 
class be worse than the book?  I understand this is a hypothetical 
situation that could apply to any year, but the tangent part of me is 
suddenly hung up on this.  In fact, why would notes in any book be 
worse than the printed instructions?  Who would be crazy enough to 
annotate detrimentally?  Filling out the answers in the post-chapter 
questions wrongly, sure, I can see that.  But, notes in the text 
itself?

Sorry, back on track now.  *g*

Mike:
> [Quick aside here; does anybody besides me think that Snape 
continued to mark up that book well after his school days? When Harry 
makes the comment that he "Shouldn't have left his old book in the 
bottom of that cupboard", I immediately thought, 'that's cause he 
continued to use it'. I speculate that Snape made most of his potions 
improvements post school days. Just a feeling ;-)]

Ceridwen:
There's been a lot of speculation about why Harry got Snape's old 
book as a loaner.  Dumbledore's influence is a big one.  I suppose 
it's possible that Snape might have continued to use the book, but 
then, why didn't Harry, Ron or Hermione recognize Adult!Snape's 
writing?

And, why wouldn't Adult!Snape have his own notebook to make 
corrections?  A clean piece of parchment, with the original potion 
spelled onto it so he wouldn't even have to copy it out, spaced wide 
enough for easily-readable notes, instead of using his old sixth-year 
text, would make more sense to me.  The notebook would also have a 
record of all attempts to improve the potions, with notes about why 
this worked and that didn't, and negative effects from any attempt.

I would also say that, since Snape left Hogwarts before Slughorn 
retired, then why didn't some other student benefit from, and keep, 
the Prince's book, long before Harry entered school?  Though, I am 
guessing that you suppose that Snape kept his book for further 
improvements, and it only got into the cupboard after he became a 
teacher.  But if that's so, then why did Snape put the book into the 
used book cupboard?  Since he only accepted O students, no student 
would be surprised to be going to his classes after getting an E.  
Why was there a loaner cupboard to begin with?  Hogwarts impresses me 
as a school that expects its students to bring all materials to 
class.  And since they live in the school, it isn't difficult to run 
up to the dorm to retrieve a forgotten book.

The question still comes down to, within the plot, how did Harry out 
of all the students who have gone to Hogwarts since Snape's sixth 
year, end up with the HBP's book?

Mike:
> Is Harry disengenuous by not coming clean to Slughorn? In a perfect 
world, which Hogwarts clearly is not, sure Harry could have fessed 
up. Let me ask this in a different way. What's Harry's motivation to 
reveal his sudden potions brilliance? Besides telling Hermione and 
Ron, of course. Altruism? He tried to share with Hermione and Ron, it 
didn't work. Should he stand up in class and announce that his text 
book has notes which improve on the standard text? Make copies of his 
book and distribute them to all the other kids in class? What course 
of action would appeal to our senses while not usurping Slughorn's 
authority? Remember, Slughorn assigned that text book, especially if 
you position yourself with those that consider the assigned text as 
inferior.

Ceridwen:
Yes, I think that Harry was disingenuous by not coming clean to 
Slughorn.  I don't think he's disingenuous for not coming clean to 
the entire class.  It isn't the rest of the class's business, until 
he continues to benefit from the notes to their disadvantage.  Even 
then, no full explanation, from Harry or Slughorn, is necessary.  In 
my opinion, of course.  If he had admitted to Slughorn from the 
beginning that he wasn't some Potions prodigy, he might have been 
able to benefit from the Prince's notes on a more practical level.  
Why does this work and that doesn't?  Slughorn could guide him.  He 
apparently knows why the improvements work.  The sprig of peppermint 
allaying nose tweaking was Slughorn's explanation, not Harry's.  By 
not challenging Slughorn's authority through his choice of book 
outright in class, then Slughorn's authority would not be in danger, 
presuming the danger is to Slughorn's reputation with his class as a 
whole.  Harry obviously sees that the assigned text is flawed.  I'm 
surprised that Hermione didn't make more of a big deal about that, 
frankly.

Neri has mentioned that a professor with a student in this situation 
would be pleased that the student was using improvements.  If Harry 
went to Slughorn and told him that he had these great notes and 
needed some help in understanding them, Slughorn would probably have 
been pleased.  He likes to think of himself as useful to up-and-
comers, and he seems to like teaching.  Both of his pleasures would 
be engaged.  He could earn some obligation from Harry, and he could 
get into the intricacies of the peppermint and whatnot with a student 
who is both an up-and-comer, and willing to learn.

Does Slughorn have much choice in textbooks?  Or is this book the 
only one, or heaven forbid, the best one, available for sixth-year 
Potions students?  There are a lot of unanswered questions here.

Mike:
> Speaking of Hermione <eg>, I didn't notice her having a problem 
with helping out the boys herself. In fact, doesn't she help both 
Harry and Neville in *Potions*? Doesn't she as much as finish both 
Ron's and Harry's homework many times throughout the series? Why is 
it that only now, when Harry has someone (or something) else to help 
him that she gets indignant about Harry getting help? Or could it 
possibly be that Hermione just doesn't like Harry outperforming her 
in class? And she hasn't exactly been the shining moralistic visage 
in HBP, has she? Hermione is quick to point out an injustice when 
it's against her, but not so quick to practice what she preaches.

Ceridwen:
Hee!  Actually, Hermione has been criticized on this list for 
correcting, or doing, Ron's and Harry's homework instead of merely 
*helping* with their homework.  The usual complaint is that the boys 
aren't learning anything if Hermione does the work for them, which is 
true.  Just as true as the Prince doing Harry's thinking for him in 
Potions.  So, this isn't just a sixth-year thing that happened 
because Harry got a good loaner book.  He's been benefitting from 
someone else's work since first year, along with Ron.

(Of course, Harry and Ron had to do some of their own work, since 
Hermione had to have time to do her own, too.  Still, she looks over 
their homework and makes (or suggests) corrections.  They had to have 
absorbed something or neither would have ended up with Es in Potions.)

Which brings it down to a whole 'nother level.  Harry's upbringing 
was not what it should have been.  I can't see the Dursleys pushing 
ethics on their unwanted nephew.  Harry started Hogwarts not knowing 
that he shouldn't take opportunity when it presents itself in an 
academic setting, since he doesn't learn from someone else doing his 
work.  Or, he doesn't do as well as he could have with someone else 
doing his work.  Harry has never learned not to let someone else do 
it if it's difficult for him.

Mike:
> Although an aptitude in potions is undoubtedly an asset if not a 
downright requirement to be an Auror...

Ceridwen:
It's a requirement.  Or, advanced Potions classes are a requirement.

Mike:
> ...I'm hesitant to assign the same need in the upcoming battle with 
Voldemort. 

Ceridwen:
Same here.  I can't imagine that the Fate of the Wizarding World (TM) 
rests on a Potions cook-off between Harry and Voldie.  I mean, who 
gets the Chief Cook apron, and who gets the Bottle-Washer apron?

Mike:
> And though Harry doesn't seem to be grasping the principles of 
potion making, maybe all he would need as a prospective Auror is a 
good guide. He does know where he can get that. Maybe that's good 
enough. I'm doubting any need as an Auror to pull up in the 
hinterland during a hot pursuit and have to brew up some antidote. 
Ingredients might be scarce. :-) But if he could carry around a 
portable kit that also contained several instructions particular to 
the ingredients available ... maybe that'll work?!

Ceridwen:
The problem with that is, situations may arise when an Auror might 
need to make an antidote on the fly, without the time it takes to 
read notes about ingredients.  An Auror might also find himself or 
herself in the position of not having such a kit at all and have to 
make an antidote from what is available.  A solid grounding in 
Potions would be necessary at such times, not an ability to read and 
follow directions.  The MoM has a requirement, and I presume the 
requirement is there for practical reasons.  They've had years to 
hone the requirements, and this is one that has stayed.

Mike:
> More to the point, when do you feel Harry lied to someone about 
using the "Prince's" methods. I'm gonna put a caveat on you here 
<eg>. You can't use lying by ommission, because that presupposes that 
Harry has a duty to disclose his use of the book's notes. 

Ceridwen:
My name's not Betsy.  So, no caveat. <eg back atcha>  I presuppose 
that Harry has a duty to disclose, *to Slughorn*, that he is using 
these notes.  I presuppose this because he won't get the instruction 
he needs to understand the notes and why the improvements are 
improvements, if he doesn't disclose, to someone knowledgeable, that 
he is using these notes.  I also presuppose that Harry should tell 
Slughorn because Slughorn is the one making wrong assumptions.  I'm 
interested in Harry's full development as our Future Hero, not in his 
passing sixth-year Potions.  So, yes, he is lying by omission.

But that isn't why he got detention.  He lied about his book to 
Snape, and he lied about his nick-name (yeah, Harry's known to his 
closest friends as Roonil Waslib, and Ron is Hoopy Popper), and he 
lied about where he found the Sectum Sempra spell.

Which leads the tangential in me to wonder, did Snape only note 
Sectum Sempra in this one book?  Did he not teach it to anyone else?  
This is the spell that breaks it for Snape, and he uses Legilimency 
to see the book in Harry's mind.  Is Harry the only other person in 
the entire WW who knows Sectum Sempra?

Ceridwen.