Bloodlines and talent (Was: To the Extreme)

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 165337



Attributed to Carol (but it was me (Snow), as Carol rightfully points 
out):
 
And, Hermione (a muggleborn) does outdo Draco in grades to the point
that Lucius scolds Draco for his lack of performance. 

Carol snipped:

Oops. I didn't say this. It might be your response to me.(?) Yes,
Lucius scolds Draco, but only in relation to being outperformed by a
Muggleborn, not in relation to anyone else (Harry, for example) 
>snipped<

Snow again:

This was the point I was trying to address...Lucius was upset that a 
muggleborn whoops his son in grades with little concern that this 
muggleborn who was also a girl who was also a Gryffindor was the 
victor. What seems to be utterly more important to Lucius is that she 
is muggleborn more so than the fact she is a girl or which house she 
belonged to. 

Lucius' rant could certainly be put off as simply a prejudice to 
muggleborns but where did Lucius, or anyone like him, form this 
prejudice? Where did it come from if it is just prejudice, was it 
simply an inherited disposition from Slytherin? Is there some type of 
foundation for the reason behind this prejudice? 

What plants the seed of prejudice; indifference towards those who are 
unlike you or is it simply fear; Or...in my suspicion, both. 
These non-purebloods or mudbloods exhibit power, some exhibiting much 
greater power than some purebloods. Could these persons have been 
viewed as a threat? 

Why did Slytherin object so fiercely over teaching anyone other than 
purebloods? Everyone seemed to be getting along well enough to raise 
the school in the beginning to each Founder's individual values, so 
what changed? Why did the other three founders at the time not have 
the same objection as Slytherin? Were any of the remaining three 
Founders not pureblood? If they were not pureblood, why didn't 
Slytherin object to them from the beginning if he had such a 
prejudice, if they were also pureblood, why didn't they savor 
Slytherin's objection? 

We were told that Slytherin would only teach those whose ancestry was 
purest when the school began, which tells me that there were children 
whose ancestry was less than pure and yet he didn't have difficulty 
with that issue at the time. What changed? 

It seems to me, and I could be quite wrong, that Slytherin was 
concerned with muggleborns and not just anyone who was not pureblood. 
Slytherin created a Chamber that harbored a basilisk whose main 
objective was to kill mudbloods (muggleborns) not just anyone who was 
not of pure blood. 

We don't know the whole story behind the founders so there could be 
more to it than the obvious prejudice. 

Snow previously:

On to the subject matter, Neville ... >snipped<

Carol responds:

But he wasn't suspected of being a Muggleborn. Gran and Uncle Algie 
know perfectly well who his parents are, and he looks so much like 
his mother that Harry recognizes Alice Longbottom in a photo before 
Mad-Eye identifies her. There's no question that Neville is the child 
of two pureblood wizards, both Aurors (at least according to OoP, if 
not GoF).

Snow again:

There is no doubt whatsoever that Neville is the product of 
purebloods and is a pureblood himself, what is significant to me is 
his lack of magic for having such a background and even more so his 
not being Chosen as Voldemort's target if pureblood status was in 
itself the greater threat. 

Why did Dumbledore purposely point out the fact that Voldemort did 
not choose the pureblood but a half-blood like himself? Is Dumbledore 
implying that Voldemort should naturally have viewed the pureblood as 
more of a threat or is it more telling that Voldemort saw the half-
blood (like himself) as more of a threat? 

Snow previously:

Ron being exactly on par with Harry seems to be a bit over the edge
to me...just look at the first flying lesson. 

Carol snipped:

I was talking about classes and OWLs, not Quidditch, at which Ron is 
quite good ... >snipped<

Snow again:

I understand where you are coming from but what I was basically 
talking about was Ron's overall performance as a competent pureblood 
wizard compared to Harry's performance (whose maternal grandparent's 
were muggle) or the muggleborn Hermione's. 

Ron, the pureblood, doesn't size up well, magically speaking, just 
against these two non-purebloods. This is not to say Ron is worthless 
or not talented, it is just that he exhibits less magical tendency 
than the other two who are not of pure blood.

Snow previously:

When the Felix Felicis was the award, as far as I recall, Hermione
would have been the next in line to achieve the award and not
Draco...muggleborn wins again. 

Carol:

Do we know that? I'm not sure that we know what Draco was doing 
>snipped<

Snow again:
There are a few paragraphs actually but I'm only going to quote the 
most prominent portions:
 
"...Malfoy had expected to be treated like Harry...perhaps even hoped 
for some preferential treatment of the type he had learned to expect 
from Snape."

"It looked as though Malfoy would have to rely on nothing but talent 
to win the bottle of Felix Felicis."

"Slughorn moved slowly among the tables, peering into cauldrons. He 
made no comment ... At last he reached the table where Harry, Ron, 
Hermione, and Ernie were sitting."

"Hermione's potion he gave an approving nod. Then he saw Harry's..." 
HBP pgs. 190 and 191 U.S. edition 

>From these few quotes, it appears to me, that Slughorn passed all 
other cauldrons without comment, since none seemed to be suitable by 
his lack of response, until he reached Hermione's which he gave an 
approving nod and of course Harry's. 

This is why I deduced that Hermione's potion would have been the 
winner if it hadn't been for Harry's perfect potion.  

Carol snipped:

Just because Draco is not quite as good as Hermione
doesn't mean that he's not very good. As I said, he must have earned 
an O on his Potions OWL (like Ernie Macmillan, three other 
Slytherins, and three Ravenclaws) even to be in that class. Harry and 
Ron are the only two E students there. I'm not denying that Hermione 
is a very good student, even without Snape's improved Potions 
directions, but it's not because she's a Muggleborn. 

Snow:

My point wasn't that pureblood Draco isn't any good (although I do 
question his grades), it's the fact that muggleborn Hermione's is 
better. 

It is true that Hermione is anal over her studies but a person with 
no talent could study till the cows come home and it won't make much 
of a difference, in the end talent is a key ingredient. 

Draco has been use to preferential treatment (as was quoted above) at 
least from Snape and doesn't seem to be concerned with studies.

I know from personal experience that kids in school, whose parent is 
on the school board, definitely get preferential treatment. The same 
could be true with Lucius position at the Ministry. How can we be 
positive Lucius didn't have influence over the OWL examiners, could 
it not be possible? Lucius has displayed his ability to control 
situations by using threats like he did when the governors discharged 
Dumbledore in COS. 

Snow previously:

The only thing I haven't already responded to would be the twins and 
I remain bound to my theory that not all Weasley's are Weasley's. 
Dumbledore's parentage is up for grabs but I would lay odds that he 
is muggleborn. 

Carol:

Erm, uh, I don't know what to say. Not all Wesleys are Weasleys
despite the red hair and the physical resemblance between the Twins 
and Charlie? (In terms of personality, they resemble Ginny.) Despite
Mrs. Weasley's Boggart, which includes Harry only because he's an
unloved orphan? Where's the canon to support this bit of speculation?

Snow:

More like suspicious canon that we have been over in the past. There 
are a few comments that the twins have made which allow me some room 
for this suspicion:

"I'm not Fred, I'm George," said the boy. Honestly, woman, you call 
yourself our mother? Can't you tell I'm George?" SS pg. 92 U.S.

"I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A 
prefect! That's everyone in the family!"

"What are Fred and I, next-door neighbors?" said George indignantly, 
as his mother pushed him aside and flung her arms around her youngest 
son." OOP pg. 163 U. S.

Not only did Molly announce that Ron's victory of being made a 
prefect meant that was everyone in the family to do so but when 
George questioned her about the statement she pushed him aside to hug 
her youngest son. 

I feel that just these two examples allow me enough room to question 
whether the twins are her natural sons. 

Carol:

(It's not a *theory* unless it can be supported by evidence.) To
suggest that they're not purebloods despite canon to the contrary is
to weasel out of the argument. (Sorry. I couldn't resist the pun, and
I really do think that you're using speculation to support speculation
rather than going by the available evidence.)

Snow:

Love the pun, it was quite apropos considering your viewpoint, 
although I would have to disagree that I don't have `any' canon to 
support at least my suspicion, which in my estimation gives 
permission to theorize to all possible or improbable degrees. 

My possible submission that Molly is not the twin's biological mother 
could very well be the logical answer as to why she excluded them 
when announcing that's everyone in the family. 

My somewhat improbable submission to what I consider a theory is the 
link I made to Molly's brothers, who also have the initials, F and G. 
First off, Fabian and Gideon were murdered during the first Voldemort 
war, which started before the birth of Harry and Ron and ended when 
Harry was 15 months old. The twins were two years older than Ron 
therefore they could have been infants when their father died and 
were brought up by Mrs. Weasley as her own without them having any 
memory of the fact.  

Mr. Weasley tells the kids at the campsite in GOF about finding the 
Dark Mark over the house. Since Fabian and Gideon are Molly's 
brothers it would be somewhat safe to assume that Mr. Weasley had 
found Molly's brothers dead. 

Now no matter how unlikely this may sound to some, I feel there could 
be a connection since it fits the timeframe of Molly's brothers' 
deaths with the age of the twins at the time, which would allow for 
them to be unaware that Molly is not their biological mother and give 
some realistic reason as to Molly's statement that excluded the twins 
from her family. 

Carol:

As for Dumbledore, I think he might have been a Half-Blood given his 
interest in Muggles, but the odds of two Muggleborn brothers, both 
wizards, are small. The only example in canon is the Creevey brothers.
But I'd lay odds that he's a descendant of Godric Gryffindor, given
his ownership of the Sword of Gryffindor and a Phoenix whose colors 
are those of Gryffindor. There's a Godric's Hollow connection as 
well, probably. 

Snow:

Could be as you say, unfortunately there is very little canon to 
support any claim of bloodlines to either Dumbledore or Gryffindor, 
all we can do is see what might fit accordingly to the rest of the 
text. What could be feasible or not. It's an act of deduction for me. 

Could it be plausible that Dumbledore is a pureblood? As you have 
said, as well as myself, Dumbledore's `interest in muggles' and 
knowledge of their ways allows for the assumption that Dumbledore 
could be at least part muggle. What I have done is to take that 
assumption one step further and see how a muggleborn Dumbledore would 
fit the scenario. For my current claim, it fits quite nicely since he 
is the most powerful magical character we have seen in the books. 
Even Voldemort fears Dumbledore. 

Carol:

BTW, Salazar Slytherin, a pureblood who wanted only purebloods like 
himself in his House, was quite powerful considering that he built 
the Chamber of Secrets and placed a Basilisk in it. And saying that 
Sirius Black and James Potter aren't really purebloods because there 
aren't any real purebloods is to make the whole discussion pointless. 
True, the Squibs get burned off the tapestry, but none of them is a 
direct ancestor of Sirius Black.

Snow:

I agree that SS was very powerful but does this show that he was the 
most powerful, was he more powerful than any of the other three 
founders whose bloodlines we are unaware of? 

Carol:

It's also important, it seems to me, that JKR has her Trio consist of
a Pureblood, a Half-Blood, and a Muggleborn. (She also gives them 
each a different wand core, Harry's being canonically a Phoenix 
feather and Ron's canonically a unicorn hair, with Hermione's 
revealed to be dragon heartstring in an interview, so that all three 
of Ollivander's "powerful magical substances" are represented.)

Snow:

I've always liked this connection! It's like a perfect marriage ... 
when all three of the trio work together they are at their best, each 
bringing their own talent to the collective whole making them a 
strong force. (The seven course task in COS) 

It seems almost representative of all the houses of Hogwarts uniting 
as one. Each one of the trio coming from different backgrounds would 
be equal to the four houses that each have a specific characteristic 
represented by their house. If the houses were to unite, they would 
also be a strong force. 

Carol:

I think that JKR's presenting some Muggleborns as talented or powerful
serves only to show that the pureblood superiority ethic is false, not
to show that Muggleborns are *better* than purebloods. Lily isn't
better at magic than James. They're both powerful and talented in
their different ways. And Harry, the product of the two, is not weaker
than Lily but more powerful than James. His Quidditch talent seems to 
be inherited directly from his pureblood father. His more unusual
gifts, e.g. Parseltongue, are the result of that unfortunate encounter
with Lord Voldemort. That he's alive at all is the result of his
Muggleborn mother's sacrifice. But he hasn't inherited her talent for
Charms or Potions (Slughorn to the contrary regarding Potions) any
more than he's an Animagus like his father.

Snow:

I would go one better where it concerns Harry and say that he was 
more powerful than either of his parents. Harry's talents excel 
during times of necessity but have never been fully realized. Now 
whether this talent is due in part to his unwanted, but inherited all 
the same, gifts Voldemort bestowed on him or if Harry's parents 
(being from their respective backgrounds) were why he is a very 
powerful wizard. 

Harry doesn't realize just how powerful he is and the majority of 
canon has been seen through Harry's eyes. 

When Harry was in the spinning room with all the doors in the Dept. 
of Mysteries and was following Bella towards the Atrium, Harry spoke 
to the room telling `no one' to show him the door and in an instant 
the room stopped spinning and opened the correct door. Harry never 
thought twice about what he had done or how he had done it, even 
after the fact. 

Harry, during Priori Incantatum, caused the bead between the two 
connected wands to stop and reverse direction towards Voldemort. 
Again Harry never thinks what type of magic could have caused this 
specific effect. 

Harry's abilities seem to be spontaneous to the task at hand but he 
has yet to recognize that he even has skills let alone nurture these 
skills for the upcoming battle. 

Carol snipped:

Yes, Voldemort chose the Half-Blood like himself over the Pureblood.
But that doesn't mean that Voldemort's reasoning is correct or that
Half-Bloods are more powerful than Purebloods, with Muggleborns the
most powerful of all. It doesn't work that way. Talent and power vary 
>snipped examples<

Snow:

You could very well be correct, Carol. I'm just considering a new 
viewpoint of the bloodline importance of these books. Lack of 
information can be equally as telling as canon fact. When I am not 
given a bloodline background on several powerful characters, like 
Dumbledore for instance, my first response is to question why? 

We were informed by JKR on her site that Dumbledore's background 
would be a profitable line of inquiry and yet we have almost nothing 
to go on so using the given canon is almost worthless. I feel we need 
to question areas where we have been denied helpful information. Why 
Dumbledore's bloodline could matter at all might depend on why blood 
matters so much in the first place. 

Snow – with apologies for being five days late with this post...I've 
been lucky to read a post and respond with a one-liner let alone 
respond in depth...anyway thanks for your thoughts!