[HPforGrownups] Re: Bloodlines and talent (Was: To the Extreme)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165342

Snow again:

This was the point I was trying to address...Lucius was upset that a 
muggleborn whoops his son in grades with little concern that this muggleborn 
who was also a girl who was also a Gryffindor was the
victor. What seems to be utterly more important to Lucius is that she is 
muggleborn more so than the fact she is a girl or which house she belonged 
to.

Magpie:
Right. Lucius says to Draco that as a Pureblood he "ought to be ashamed" 
that she beat him in all their exams. He is also upset at blood "not 
mattering" as much any more. (If being Pureblood doesn't matter he loses 
power.)

Snow:
Lucius' rant could certainly be put off as simply a prejudice to muggleborns 
but where did Lucius, or anyone like him, form this prejudice? Where did it 
come from if it is just prejudice, was it simply an inherited disposition 
from Slytherin? Is there some type of foundation for the reason behind this 
prejudice?

Magpie:
Or Wizards consider Muggles inferior, and Muggleborns come from Muggles. 
They are outsiders. They might "take over" the way that people often feel 
new groups will "take over" when they arrive. Muggleborns having equal power 
could be just as bad as their having super powers.

Snow:
What plants the seed of prejudice; indifference towards those who are unlike 
you or is it simply fear; Or...in my suspicion, both. These non-purebloods 
or mudbloods exhibit power, some exhibiting much
greater power than some purebloods. Could these persons have been viewed as 
a threat?

Magpie:
Sure. And some Muggle-borns will exhibit more power than some Purebloods. 
But not, it seems to me, to the point of Muggleborns being superior wizards 
as a "race." Hermione could have talents Sirius doesn't, Sirius could have 
talents Lupin doesn't etc.

Snow:
Why did Slytherin object so fiercely over teaching anyone other than 
purebloods? Everyone seemed to be getting along well enough to raise the 
school in the beginning to each Founder's individual values, so
what changed? Why did the other three founders at the time not have the same 
objection as Slytherin? Were any of the remaining three Founders not 
pureblood? If they were not pureblood, why didn't
Slytherin object to them from the beginning if he had such a prejudice, if 
they were also pureblood, why didn't they savor Slytherin's objection?

Magpie:
Good question. The hat says that they all started to fight, and stopped when 
Slytherin left, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything about their 
blood. They may have all been Purebloods, or not have objected to 
Slytherin's idea. He got his house full of Purebloods, iirc, and perhaps 
that was enough for him.

Snow:
We were told that Slytherin would only teach those whose ancestry was purest 
when the school began, which tells me that there were children whose 
ancestry was less than pure and yet he didn't have difficulty with that 
issue at the time. What changed?

Magpie:
Slytherin may definitely be misunderstood after all this time. Perhaps Tom 
Riddle's idea of Slytherin's "noble work" with the basilisk weren't really 
what Slytherin was planning.

Snow again:

There is no doubt whatsoever that Neville is the product of purebloods and 
is a pureblood himself, what is significant to me is his lack of magic for 
having such a background and even more so his not being Chosen as 
Voldemort's target if pureblood status was in itself the greater threat.

Why did Dumbledore purposely point out the fact that Voldemort did not 
choose the pureblood but a half-blood like himself? Is Dumbledore implying 
that Voldemort should naturally have viewed the pureblood as more of a 
threat or is it more telling that Voldemort saw the half-blood (like 
himself) as more of a threat?

Magpie:
Well, he was choosing his "equal" and since Voldemort was obsessed with 
blood it may have just seemed obvious to him to choose the one who was his 
equal blood-wise. Neville doesn't really have a lack of magic, necessarily. 
He lacks confidence more than he lacks magic, it seems.

I think Dumbledore was pointing out the irony that he chose Harry, who would 
one day destroy him. Voldemort's own obsession with blood led to his own 
destiny.

Snow again:

I understand where you are coming from but what I was basically talking 
about was Ron's overall performance as a competent pureblood wizard compared 
to Harry's performance (whose maternal grandparent's were muggle) or the 
muggleborn Hermione's.

Ron, the pureblood, doesn't size up well, magically speaking, just against 
these two non-purebloods. This is not to say Ron is worthless or not 
talented, it is just that he exhibits less magical tendency than the other 
two who are not of pure blood.

Magpie:
I think there's more things involved in schoolwork and other things than 
just magical power. But regardless, even if Ron is inferior (seemingly) to 
Hermone and Harry, neither Hermione nor Harry can come up with the stuff the 
Twins do. I think it all evens out when you look at individuals instead of 
using Hermione as standing in for all Muggleborns and pitting her against 
others. Just in general, in the real world, it's usually not a good idea to 
start drawing conclusions about someone's "race" (though that might not be 
the right word) based on single examples.

Snow:

My point wasn't that pureblood Draco isn't any good (although I do question 
his grades), it's the fact that muggleborn Hermione's is better.

It is true that Hermione is anal over her studies but a person with no 
talent could study till the cows come home and it won't make much of a 
difference, in the end talent is a key ingredient.

Draco has been use to preferential treatment (as was quoted above) at least 
from Snape and doesn't seem to be concerned with studies.

I know from personal experience that kids in school, whose parent is on the 
school board, definitely get preferential treatment. The same could be true 
with Lucius position at the Ministry. How can we be
positive Lucius didn't have influence over the OWL examiners, could it not 
be possible? Lucius has displayed his ability to control situations by using 
threats like he did when the governors discharged
Dumbledore in COS.

Magpie:
We don't know how much Draco studies. He's got a demanding father--that's a 
good canonical reason for him to be quite interested in studies. We know 
he's got at least an E in Transfig, an O in Potions. He's never been shown 
having trouble in school--and Harry sees grades early on in the series. It's 
of course possible there are students who are as smart or smarter than 
Hermione but don't work as hard and don't do as well on tests and things. Of 
course, now we're also getting into another area of brains, which gets mixed 
up with power in canon as well. Plus some students are better in different 
subjects or skills than others. It seems as hard to judge Wizards against 
each other sometimes as it is people.

Lucius in OotP (when OWLS are) is in jail, and he's already been kicked off 
the school board years before. Albus Dumbledore runs Hogwarts and is not 
about to give Draco preferential treatment gradewise--we already know Draco 
does not get preferential treatment (outside of Snape liking him, and other 
students are favorites of different teachers too) at Hogwarts. Your personal 
experience of kids on the schoolboard does not fit with Draco at Hogwarts, 
who doesn't get rules broken for him. JKR even puts in a line where Draco is 
trying to scare people with the idea that it's "who you know," only to have 
Neville reveal he's just bluffing. It's Neville whose family is friends with 
the examiner--not somebody under Lucius' thumb.

So I see no reason to question Draco's grades at all. Certainly not because 
a Pureblood. I think he gets better grades than Half-blood Harry in Potions 
and Harry gets better grades than Pureblood Draco in DADA. Hermione usually 
beats everyone in every subject except DADA, and presumably there are areas 
when she is beat by others. Harry's class happens to have a top student 
who's a Muggleborn. Previous years have probably have top students who were 
Purebloods or Halfbloods.

I mean, this theory basically argues that Voldemort is *right*, only he's 
got the wrong blood group to call inferior. (And that blood group includes 
the Durlseys!)

Snow:
It seems almost representative of all the houses of Hogwarts uniting as one. 
Each one of the trio coming from different backgrounds would be equal to the 
four houses that each have a specific characteristic
represented by their house. If the houses were to unite, they would also be 
a strong force.

Magpie:
I agree-but I think it's a bit undermined if the Trio are also ranked 
bloodwise, so that rather than each bringing their own strengths, Hermione's 
the best, then Harry and then Ron brings up the rear as the inferior 
Pureblood.

Snow:

You could very well be correct, Carol. I'm just considering a new viewpoint 
of the bloodline importance of these books. Lack of information can be 
equally as telling as canon fact. When I am not
given a bloodline background on several powerful characters, like Dumbledore 
for instance, my first response is to question why?

We were informed by JKR on her site that Dumbledore's background would be a 
profitable line of inquiry and yet we have almost nothing to go on so using 
the given canon is almost worthless. I feel we need to question areas where 
we have been denied helpful information. Why Dumbledore's bloodline could 
matter at all might depend on why blood
matters so much in the first place.

Magpie:
But are we really supposed to wonder why we're not given the bloodlines of 
powerful characters, the first thing Draco Malfoy would ask as a first year? 
Dumbledore's family might be important, but as I think I said earlier I 
think family is a different thing than bloodline.

It's like if I were black and my parents were good dancers, and I was a good 
dancer. It's one thing to say I inherited my dance talent from my parents. 
It's another to say I was a good dancer because I was black.  (That is, of 
course, not supposed to imply that you make any kind of racist statement 
like that about real people.)

-m