[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Dumbledore on the Tower/ Blood on DD face (WARNING-NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH)

[Ronin_47]

No: HPFGUIDX 165340

--Ceridwen wrote--
>>>The reasoning is, if Dumbledore had died on the tower, his heart would 
have stopped pumping blood at that moment. The AK was directed at his 
chest. The AK, according to canon, kills instantly.

Therefore, when he was found at the base of the tower, there should not 
have been a trail of blood from his mouth as the blood would all have 
settled low in the body due to gravity. Dumbledore did not, as Harry 
saw, fall headfirst, and he didn't apparently land on his head. He was 
on his back. So, the blood would not have been able to go upward 
without a beating heart to pump it to the mouth.

I'm not a forensics expert so I can't say for sure. But it does sound 
like a sticking point, *if* JKR knows this much about forensics and is 
not going for the visual effect here.
<<<

 
 
 
 
--Ronin's Comments--
Actually, according to forensic experts, this is what happens;
 
"Once the heart stops beating, blood collects in the most dependent parts of
the body (livor mortis), the body stiffens (rigor mortis), and the body
begins to cool (algor mortis).

The blood begins to settle in the parts of the body that are the closest to
the ground, usually the buttocks and back when a corpse is supine. The skin,
normally pink-colored because of the oxygen-laden blood in the capillaries,
becomes pale as the blood drains into the larger veins. Within minutes to
hours after death, the skin is discolored by livor mortis, or what embalmers
call "postmortem stain," the purple-red discoloration from blood
accumulating in the lowermost (dependent) blood vessels. Immediately after
death, the blood is "unfixed" and will move to other body parts if the
body's position is changed. After a few hours, the pooled blood becomes
"fixed" and will not move. ..."  -
http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Change
s.html

 

In other words, although the heart may stop pumping blood, the blood doesn't
just simply fall and collect in the feet at that instant. It moves and pools
in the dependant parts (would the brain be considered dependent?) and can
move if the body's position is changed. I.E. It falls off of a tower. This
is not an instantaneous process, but takes several minutes and the blood
would collect in the lower dependent parts over time. If he was face down,
blood would pool in the chest area, but if he landed on his back, it would
pool in the buttocks and spinal region. Only if the body were hung, would
the blood pool in the feet and legs, and that would take a while to occur.

 

 

"The following is not for everyone and can upset some, only read if you
really want to


Moment of Death:
1} The heart stops
2} The skin gets tight and grey in color
3} All the muscles relax
4} The bladder and bowels empty
. . . .4a - Men will get an erection. No, I don't know when, exactly. I
really didn't feel like calling up the local mortuary and asking this. And
there's people on my mailing list I could have asked, I bet, but it's kind
of weird popping up and asking that. No pun intended. I'm not sure my
parents know what erections are, so I can't ask them. I did read that this
was one of the reasons hangings were so well attended by women, back in the
old.days. Big Laffs, seeing the Hung, hung.
5} The body's temperature will typically drop 1.5 degrees F. per hour unless
outside environment is a factor. The liver is the organ that stays warmest
the longest, and this temperature is used to establish time of death if the
body is found within that time frame. 


After 30 minutes: 
6} The skin gets purple and waxy
7} The lips, finger- and toe nails fade to a pale color or turn white as the
blood leaves.
8} Blood pools at the lowest parts of the body leaving a dark purple-black
stain called lividity 
9} The hands and feet turn blue
10} The eyes start to sink into the skull 
After 4 hours:
11} Rigor mortis starts to set in
12} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue
13} Rigor Mortis begins to tighten the muscles for about another 24 hours,
then will reverse and the body will return to a limp state. "  -
http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forensic-science/rigor-mortis-19044.html


 

 

Even if the blood had already begun to drain into the lower extremities,
either the force of the AK hitting the chest or the force of impact on the
ground could have forced a blood spray from the mouth, just as if you
dropped a water balloon, the water would spray out of the weakest point
which would be the opening if the balloon was untied.

This is similar to performing CPR. The heart has stopped, and we can use
physical force to pump the blood for the heart and try to revive the heart.
A severe trauma, such as the impact of falling from the tower or being hit
forcefully in the chest could cause one forceful rush of blood.

 

Another possibility is if Dumbledore had internal injuries from drinking the
potion in the cave. He may have had blood in his throat or mouth already
which might be forced to spray out upon impact.

So, I don't think that a trail of blood from Dumbledore's mouth is in any
way proof of pre AK mortem. I don't think it disproves your theory either.
There is much more to forensic science than what is revealed from this
simple blood trail and without a complete investigation, it is impossible to
determine from the evidence provided. 

 

I'm sorry that some of this is graphic, but since we are discussing forensic
evidence, I think it's relevant.

Cheers,

Ronin



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